08 Jul 12
Originally posted by Pianoman1What about #4? It so happens I was perusing stuff at the local Salvation Army store and found a table of new CD's. In them were some Horowitz, Kissin and one other I forget the name of, almost the same age as Kissin. But also found Mahler's #4 and listened to it several times on the way to work (80 mile ride), very lyrical and has a singer in the 4th movement. What do you think of #4? The liner notes talked about his depression and how earlier work led him to a creative frenzy that had him finish #4 in a few weeks.
Wow, what a question!
Agree with you about 5 and 6, BUT how can you ignore 2 and 8?
I suppose, bearing ALL movements in mind I would have to say Symphony No 6 with Claudio Abaddo and Berlin Phil.
20 Jul 12
Originally posted by scacchipazzoThe scope of emotional expression in Mahler reaches far and wide. The skill with which he can express subtle emotional states is admirable.
It really all depends on who you ask. Many find Mahler garrulous, others find him sublime. To me he is a cross between both camps. I love Mahler, but do not think he reaches the level of the other greats, especially not Wagner, whom he somewhat imitated. I do love many Mahler works for long car trips, especially Das Lied von der Erde, a work written in the white heat of creative passion and possibly his masterwork.
Now I am not deeply familiar into opera. I have not sat through a Wagner opera and tend to know better some of his overture music.
But I would be interested to hear you elaborate on why you consider Wagner's skill as a composer higher than that of Mahler.
I am a self taught composer for the most part. So your insights and opinions on this might be helpful.
20 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillI regret I may not be the best source of musical commentary on composition, not being a musician, but a widely read music lover who listens deeply to all the greats. However, I'll give it a whack. Wagner was a talented amateur at best whose genius reached the highest level for an informally trained musician. Wagner pushed opera to it's greatest heights. Although not the inventor of the leitmotif he elevated it to sublime art. Wagner always seemed to know what musical phrase would best be associated with a mood, character, circumstance, attribute or plotline. His harmonies and orchestration along with his soaring melodies made his operas unlike any compositions heard before or since. Wagner's ideal of the Gesamkuntswerk (total work of art) was boldly pushed forward in his latter works and in Der Ring des Nibelungen and Tristan und Isolde. Wagner's ideal of sprechtsingen foretells many modern artworks such as rap. Wagner influenced the arts in a way no other composer did in that his conception of total art encompassed even theater building. He was not the only composer to write his own libretti, but he certainly was the best at it. The greatest composers of his day attended the premiere of the Ring. Tchaikovsky and others were given copies of the score to better follow the work. Tchaikovsky openly said no musician had ever written such music and extolled the virtues of Wagner's skill. Wagner's hugely complex dramas for music(he disliked the term opera) are difficult and require much re-listening, but the rewards are great. Listen to the first half of Das Rheingold carefully. You realize from the offset that you are listening to uncommon genius the way he writes the opening phrases to simulate being underwater. Wagner paints Alberich's frustration at being unable to seduce the beautiful Rhine maidens with music projecting unrequited carnal love quite clearly and paints revenge emphatically. Alberich steals the Rhine Gold and abjures love for power. Listen to the opening scene first then watch a video of it and it all comes together quite nicely. I wish I had a better grasp of German to fully appreciate Wagner's great poetry. Simply put Wagner was a giant of art and a genius without question. Where Mahler excelled was as a Wagnerian conductor for he understood Wagner's music deeply. Wagner's music required special singers and thus was born the Heldentenor, and also special instruments of his own invention such as the Wagner Tuba. Wagner was up to any challenge musically speaking. Lastly, listen to the closing scene of the Ring in Gotterdamerung. If you can find more sublime music than that I will eat my words as a Wagner admirer. Wagner paints destruction emphatically but closes with the "hope" leitmotif and makes your heart fill with the joy of impending rebirth!
The scope of emotional expression in Mahler reaches far and wide. The skill with which he can express subtle emotional states is admirable.
Now I am not deeply familiar into opera. I have not sat through a Wagner opera and tend to know better some of his overture music.
But I would be interested to hear you elaborate on why you consider Wagner's sk ...[text shortened]... self taught composer for the most part. So your insights and opinions on this might be helpful.
20 Jul 12
2 edits
Originally posted by scacchipazzoThanks.
I regret I may not be the best source of musical commentary on composition, not being a musician, but a widely read music lover who listens deeply to all the greats. However, I'll give it a whack. Wagner was a talented amateur at best whose genius reached the highest level for an informally trained musician. Wagner pushed opera to it's greatest heights. th the "hope" leitmotif and makes your heart fill with the joy of impending rebirth!
When I think of amatuers who became contributors to the standard concert repertoire I think of the following that the Russian Balakeriev surrounded himself with, including Mussorsky, Borodin, and Rimsky Korsakov.
All who wanted to get away from German dominated schooling. All were amatuer and proud of it, to develop a national Russian sound of concert music.
However, Rimsky Korsakov latter broke ranks and over compensated by becoming an conservatory educator.
I think Wagner cut through to a new trend and latter composers could follow. I think he arrived with the right idea at the right time when people were ready for it.
Thanks again. Good summary.
20 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillI highly recommend the following strategy to steep yourself in the musical technique of composing. Since I see you are a religious man you might be interested in examining sacred music by selecting a particular passage such as "Benedictus" and listen to various composers' treatment of the Holy text. I enjoy comparing the 13th century Franciscan poem "Stabat Mater Dolorosa" and how various composers have written glorious music through the centuries for this amazing poem in Latin. Sometimes even the greats had overwhelming experiences writing sacred music such as Beethoven. His treatment of the Benedictus in his Missa Solemnis speaks of a composer transported to an almost childlike state whereby he wrote a violin obbligato for which he has always been somewhat scoffed at as simplistic thereby critics missing the point Beethoven made in highlighting the purity of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks.
When I think of amatuers who became contributors to the standard concert repertoire I think of the following that the Russian Balakeriev surrounded himself with, including Mussorsky, Borodin, and Rimsky Korsakov.
All who wanted to get away from German dominated schooling. All were amatuer and proud of it, to develop a national Russian sound o ...[text shortened]... the right idea at the right time when people were ready for it.
Thanks again. Good summary.
Compare then to Mozart's Benedictus in his Requiem and Haydn's in his Paukenmesse. These three are wonderful exemplars of glorious musicianship and incredible melodies. Since I suspect you are not Catholic you might also explore Brahms' Requiem set to Lutheran text in German and a wondrous work onto itself.
Mozart's:
Haydn's (Misa in Tempore Belli or Paukenmesse):
My other favorite sacred music is the Agnus Dei of various masses with my favorites being Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and Haydn's Paukenmesse.
Beethoven's:
Haydn's:
I hope you enjoy these as much as I do! Good listening to you!