10 Mar 08
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsI agree with you; Debussy is extremely hard to play well, and he wrote some technically very demanding pieces, like the fireworks-prelude you mentioned before. His 12 Etudes aren't easy, either. They may seem easier than some pieces by other composers like Liszt at first, but as you try to play better, it becomes increasingly harder. The subtleties and various colours the pieces ask for need the highest listening skills and finger and wrist activity possible, which a lot of professional pianists don't even possess.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5YasjMqoY0
Here's a video of Debussy's "Gardens in the Rain" (Estampes No. 3) as played by a professional pianist, Gerhard Oppitz. He does not play it especially well, and stumbles over it in several places, but he has the tempo about right (a little rushed, but at least not too slow) and does OK much of the time. Unfortu ...[text shortened]... at all known for difficult piano pieces: are you saying that this is not an advanced work?
10 Mar 08
Originally posted by eatmybishophow 'bout Hayden?
for classical pianists, debussy is looked on as a composer who wrote non-challenging pieces... i play a lot of debussy and havent found too many of his works a challenge... though i have never played the feux d'artice...
mozart is also said to be non-challenging.... i wouldnt say bach was either... chopin, rachmaninov and beethoven's works demand more ...[text shortened]... to be virtually unplayable...
btw, because a piece is difficult, it doesn't make it good
10 Mar 08
It's easy to play anything poorly, and not so easy to play simple things well. Different techniques are required for different pieces, but ultimately the player's technique must be advanced enough to ensure the artistic expression is unfettered. After that, technique blends into the background.
Most difficult piece? No idea. Just wanted to butt into this thread. But from my experience, "Giant Steps" requires a lot of practice to keep an intelligent phrase going over all the changes. Also, being a bass player, most of the Beatles repertoire is surprisingly difficult to play precisely, especially while singing.
10 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Mark Adkinsan advanced work? that's an ambiguous statement... in what terms are we talking here... i did say, technically speaking, debussy is not seen as such a challenge as chopin and listz and as a classical/jazz pianist myself, i stand by that statement, though i am not the first to make it...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5YasjMqoY0
Here's a video of Debussy's "Gardens in the Rain" (Estampes No. 3) as played by a professional pianist, Gerhard Oppitz. He does not play it especially well, and stumbles over it in several places, but he has the tempo about right (a little rushed, but at least not too slow) and does OK much of the time. Unfortu at all known for difficult piano pieces: are you saying that this is not an advanced work?
an advanced work in terms of musical creativity then debussy was very advanced, his music was of an impressionistic nature, complex voicings, very often not resolving to tonic, the use of the whole tone scale, a strong use of the 6th chord, a lot of people attribute this to jazz musicians but it was debussy who popularised the 6th chord; in fact, it was the jazz musicians who looked to the chord voicings of ravel and debussy (their use of the major 7, 11 and 13) for inspiration
10 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PBE6giant steps is also notoriously difficult to improvise over, it should be played at a quick tempo, the chords change so often; constantly jumping in and out of keys...
It's easy to play anything poorly, and not so easy to play simple things well. Different techniques are required for different pieces, but ultimately the player's technique must be advanced enough to ensure the artistic expression is unfettered. After that, technique blends into the background.
Most difficult piece? No idea. Just wanted to butt into this he Beatles repertoire is surprisingly difficult to play precisely, especially while singing.
i think the best example of a stumbling block for jazz musicians is jobim's "the girl from ipanema"..... written in f, simple chords to improvise over.... all of a sudden the bridge section transposes up a semitone to f#... you spot how many musicians simply go back to playing the tune at this stage
10 Mar 08
Originally posted by eatmybishopIt really wasn't ambiguous, considering the context. Anyone who can look at that video and listen to that work, and see Oppitz struggling over it, and not acknowledge it as highly challenging technically, is simply imperceptive. And as has already been pointed out by myself and others, it is scarcely the only such work among Debussy's oeuvre.
an advanced work? that's an ambiguous statement... in what terms are we talking here... i did say, technically speaking, debussy is not seen as such a challenge as chopin and listz and as a classical/jazz pianist myself, i stand by that statement, though i am not the first to make it...
an advanced work in terms of musical creativity then debussy was ...[text shortened]... o the chord voicings of ravel and debussy (their use of the major 7, 11 and 13) for inspiration
11 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Mark Adkinsit's not a challenging piece - sorry - i can play it - anyone grade 8 or over should not struggle with this piece... it mainly consist of fast arpeggio playing; very often, what looks difficult for a non-pianist is not - he is struggling with interpretation and tempo, not the notes themselves
It really wasn't ambiguous, considering the context. Anyone who can look at that video and listen to that work, and see Oppitz struggling over it, and not acknowledge it as highly challenging technically, is simply imperceptive. And as has already been pointed out by myself and others, it is scarcely the only such work among Debussy's oeuvre.
11 Mar 08
Originally posted by eatmybishopthat question contains a false assumption because the style is not the point. the difficulty in any piece of music arises out of technical complexity combined with the sensitivity required for the piece.
i'd like to hear what people think the most difficult style of music for a musician to play is....
as a musician, i would say jazz and classical are the most technically demanding, jazz due to it's complex harmonies and improvisation and classical for just being so demanding
11 Mar 08
Originally posted by eatmybishopAbove a certain level, everyone is supposed to be able to play any piece. The difficulty of a piece doesn't ly in who's able to play it and who's not, but in being able to play it well. As I posted earlier, Debussy's music is incredibly hard to play well.
it's not a challenging piece - sorry - i can play it - anyone grade 8 or over should not struggle with this piece... it mainly consist of fast arpeggio playing; very often, what looks difficult for a non-pianist is not - he is struggling with interpretation and tempo, not the notes themselves
That counts for the no. 3 Estampe 'Jardins sous la Pluie' as well as any other piece he wrote. I can play it; in fact I played it about 8 years ago. But I know that, were I to play it again, it would sure cost me a lot of time to be able to play it really well.
12 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by eatmybishopInstead of admitting that you made a hasty generalization, you just keep digging yourself deeper into a pit of ever more fatuous assertions:
it's not a challenging piece - sorry - i can play it - anyone grade 8 or over should not struggle with this piece... it mainly consist of fast arpeggio playing; very often, what looks difficult for a non-pianist is not - he is struggling with interpretation and tempo, not the notes themselves
(1) "Anyone grade 8 or over should not struggle with this piece".
Really? Then why was Gerhard Oppitz struggling over it? Here's a link to his bio:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Oppitz-Gerhard.htm
For that matter, why do the adult amateurs posting their own performances (some from public recitals) on youtube video do worse than Oppitz, even when they slow the tempo down?
(2) "It consists mainly of fast arpeggio playing"
Evidently you don't know what an arpeggio is, or can't distinguish one from a non-chordal, shifting series of repeated notes. Even so, you ought to be able to acknowledge that arpeggios, if unusual enough, or complex enough (or occurring in a sufficiently complex context), and/or requiring a sufficiently rapid tempo, can present a severe technical challenge.
(3) "Very often, what looks difficult for a non-pianist is not - he is struggling with interpretation and tempo, not the notes themselves"
I can hear Oppitz struggling to get the notes right, and failing, significantly, on several occasions during the piece. And I can see him struggling over it.