17 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by socialist1917I agree with your stance and applaud you for looking for facts.
A couple of months ago, I went through this abstinance program at my high school. I signed an abstinance pledge (not because I wanted to, but because I would never hear the end of it if I didn't). I do realize that the only safe way ...[text shortened]... not taught? I go to school to learn about facts, not about myths.
Beware, some people will try to push their agendas on you anyways, but you probably have seen this already.
Rec for your post.
EDIT: I was in Knoxville and had a wonderful time. 🙂
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by KneverKnighteep, I hope you're not looking my way. heh.
I agree with your stance and applaud you for looking for facts.
Beware, some people will try to push their agendas on you anyways, but you probably have seen this already.
Rec for your post.
EDIT: I was in Knoxville and had a wonderful time. 🙂
I also applaud his looking for information and I hopefully helped, without pushing an agenda. If this was the case I apologise. Usually my goal is to offer information without bias. Sometimes I'm successful sometimes not.
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by CanadaguyTelling your kids they could get a disease that could permanently
Resources such as INFORMATION. Information about specific diseases and their symptoms. My parents wern't doctors, so all they could warn me about was diseases without being specific. We didn't have the internet when I was growing up, so my parents taught us the best they could. When our schools taught us, the nurse could tell us about specific diseases and viruses like AIDS, and Herpes, and what not that my parents were incapable of telling me.
harm them, their ability to have kids, harm their kids, or that they
could die requires you to be doctor? If your kids trust you, your word
should do it, and nothing stops the two of you to look up any
information you think you need. Beside the two of you looking up
things up would be useful don't you think, not to mention some
important bonding time, instead of pushing it off on the school!
Kelly
17 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayActually telling them how to avoid a disease that could do all those thing requires someone with a least a rudimentary medical knowledge of the disease itself. Maybe some people are just toooooooooooo damn stupid to do that; should their kids face increased risk of disease because the parents are ignorant? Or embarrassed? Can we tell them they should get a polio shot or is that infringing on someone's parental rights?
Telling your kids they could get a disease that could permanently
harm them, their ability to have kids, harm their kids, or that they
could die requires you to be doctor? If your kids trust you, your word
should do it, and nothing stop ...[text shortened]... nt bonding time, instead of pushing it off on the school!
Kelly
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayDo you think it should be taught at all?
Do you think it should be taught at all? Shouldn't something like that
come from the homes the kids come out of instead of the state?
Kelly
Yes it should be taught, alongside of basic hygiene. STDs can be prevented.
Shouldn't something like that
come from the homes the kids come out of instead of the state?
Are you saying the state has no interest in preventing disease?
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by no1marauderYea, no one is disputing that it is better to have some knowledge,
Actually telling them how to avoid a disease that could do all those thing requires someone with a least a rudimentary medical knowledge of the disease itself. Maybe some people are just toooooooooooo damn stupid to do that; should their kids face increased risk of disease because the parents are ignorant? Or embarrassed? Can we tell them they should get a polio shot or is that infringing on someone's parental rights?
even rudimentary medical knowledge is better having none when
you want to have a discussion. My point is that I believe it is better
if the parents are doing this, not the state. Just as I don't want them
to push a religion in a school, I don't want them telling my kids
a better way to have sex, or with who, or what.
As far as your polio shot goes, yes you can tell them why would
anyone say no to that, but are you going to force any and all
medicine on families that don't want it?
Kelly
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by KneverKnightI believe sex and religion are two very important subjects for
[b]Do you think it should be taught at all?
Yes it should be taught, alongside of basic hygiene. STDs can be prevented.
Shouldn't something like that
come from the homes the kids come out of instead of the state?
Are you saying the state has no interest in preventing disease?
[/b]
people that the state should not be meddling in, those should
be left up to the families. I am not saying the state does not
have an interest in preventing disease; I'm saying I don't want
the state telling my kids what is and is not acceptable when it
comes to religion or sex. If the state takes the position, and
those in power feel they must take a position, than those in the
state take away from parents authority, because what the state
says is law, isn't adding to anything to parents.
Kelly
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayLet me start from your last point and work backwards: In New York, there are a number of vaccinations that all children are required to get or they can't go to school. Since school is mandatory (something I actually don't support), in effect the State is requiring them to take certain medicine. What are your feelings on that?
Yea, no one is disputing that it is better to have some knowledge,
even rudimentary medical knowledge is better having none when
you want to have a discussion. My point is that I believe it is better
if the parents are doing this, not the state. Just as I don't want them
to push a religion in a school, I don't want them telling my kids
a better way t ...[text shortened]... o that, but are you going to force any and all
medicine on families that don't want it?
Kelly
I don't feel that giving accurate information to someone is infringing anybody else's rights. If you say that if you abstain from sex that you can't get STD's that is the truth. If you say this or that type of protection is whatever percentage effective, that is the truth. What is the point of education if truthful information has to be withheld from people because it might offend someone? Do parents have a right to keep their kids ignorant?
17 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderIn New York, there are a number of vaccinations that all children
Let me start from your last point and work backwards: In New York, there are a number of vaccinations that all children are required to get or they can't go to school. Since school is mandatory (something I actually don't suppo ...[text shortened]... fend someone? Do parents have a right to keep their kids ignorant?
are required to get or they can't go to school. Since school is
mandatory (something I actually don't support), in effect the State is
requiring them to take certain medicine. What are your feelings on
that?
If it is forced medicine I competely disagree with it.
I don't feel that giving accurate information to someone is infringing anybody else's rights.
I agree with this statement, the devil or the trouble comes in the
details if I may use the word devil. 🙂
Can we say prayer is allowed in school, but as soon as a teacher
starts it, what has happened? A position has been taken, on prayer!
As soon as the state tells us it knows best, the state plays by it's
own rules not the parents.
Please, I am not saying that parents should keep thier kids ignorant!
Come on, give me a break here! I'm saying that it is up to the
parents to make sure that their kids are not ignorant, and when they
do inform their kids they can instill those family values they have.
Kelly
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayI agree completely that it's the parents job to educate their children on sexuality. The problem begins when parents don't ensure open and honest dialogue with their kids. It begins from a childs very first questions about the world, not just with the introduction to sexuality. Being honest and open with your child from the very start is the foundation for communication in the teen years. Also, only a parent knows their childs maturity level and just how much information they are ready for. Just because a group of kids are all in the same grade and are the same age does not mean they are all at the same maturity level. I'm not totally opposed to schools teaching sex education but as the parent I make sure to stay informed as to when these classes are to take place and follow up with my child as to what was actually understood. Some children are embarassed to ask questions in front of other students or might not have fully heard or understood the instructors words due to size and distractions of the classroom. It's a joint effort in the end with the majority of the responsibility on the parents. I like to think that in this day and age most parents are more than well informed on diseases and prevention. You can't protect your kids forever or pretend that they will never have sexual desires. All you can do is guide them and help them to make choices that are right for them. The problem I have with schools teaching my daughters about sex is that they focus so much on the details and the biological functions and completely avoid the emotional issues. Sex is not just a mechanical function it's an emotional investment. While kids are being taught disease prevention they're not being taught emotional responsibility. This is where parents need to really step up to the plate and talk to them about love, attachment, rejection and respect. You don't need a medical degree for that.
Telling your kids they could get a disease that could permanently
harm them, their ability to have kids, harm their kids, or that they
could die requires you to be doctor? If your kids trust you, your word
should do it, and nothing stops the two of you to look up any
information you think you need. Beside the two of you looking up
things up would be us ...[text shortened]... , not to mention some
important bonding time, instead of pushing it off on the school!
Kelly
17 Aug 05
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayIf the information is merely presented in the manner I said, I don't see what the problem is. Prayer, of course, is not factual information; it is belief. Can the State tell kids that the Sun is 93 million miles from the Sun or that Albany is the capital of New York state? The State is taking a position that these are true facts because they are.
[b/]In New York, there are a number of vaccinations that all children
are required to get or they can't go to school. Since school is
mandatory (something I actually don't support), in effect the State is
requiring them to take certai ...[text shortened]... their kids they can instill those family values they have.
Kelly
I would certainly hope that any parents would ask there kids what they had learned in such a class and discuss it with them. But we both know that, unfortunately, there are some families where this will not happen. It should be the parent's primary responsibility but some are ill-equipped to handle it. Should their kids face greater risk of disease (potentially fatal disease) because the parents are unwilling or unable to give them factual information regarding STD's?
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by socialist1917The only way to be 100% sure you're not going to suffer food poisoning is by not eating.
A couple of months ago, I went through this abstinance program at my high school. I signed an abstinance pledge (not because I wanted to, but because I would never hear the end of it if I didn't). I do realize that the only safe way not to transmit STDs is abstinance, but preaching about the evils of condom use isn't helping anything. The fact is, ...[text shortened]... nse. Why is the method above not taught? I go to school to learn about facts, not about myths.
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm just curious KellyJay, with your position on sex and religion, how do you feel about the government implementing no spanking laws? Do you feel that also infringes on the authority of parents? And what about the law in some places that if your child skips school the parent goes to jail? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject.
I believe sex and religion are two very important subjects for
people that the state should not be meddling in, those should
be left up to the families. I am not saying the state does not
have an interest in preventing disease; I'm saying I don't want
the state telling my kids what is and is not acceptable when it
comes to religion or sex. If the st ...[text shortened]... nts authority, because what the state
says is law, isn't adding to anything to parents.
Kelly
17 Aug 05
Some research evidence - www.choosingthebest.org/research_results/index.html
Not sure it's reliable and is possibly 'biased'.
Some research that suggests the combination of teaching 'abstinance' and contraceptive use is much more effective - www.aclu.org/ReproductiveRights/ReproductiveRights.cfm?ID=17029&c=147
I am a British teacher who teaches Sex Education to my Form Group as part of Personal and Social Education (PSHE), although I have no training. If this is typical of the country as a whole (it is in my school) then it seems a very hit and miss approach. The material we are given to teach focuses on the need to use contraceptives, particularly condoms, to prevent pregnancy and STDs. I personally also stress that casual sex is not a good idea and that people should consider waiting until they are emotionaly mature before engaging in sexual activity. However I'm sure that with a lot of teenagers this is 'in one ear and out the other'.
The UK has the highest rate of teenege pregnacies in Western Europe so we're obviosly getting something wrong.
The picture in the USA is even worse
More teenage girls in the United States and United Kingdom become pregnant than anywhere else in the developed world, because they are poorly prepared for life in a modern and sexualised society, says a report out this week.
The United States has topped a table of teenage pregnancy rates put together by Unicef's Innocenti Research Centre in Italy, which looked at births among teenagers in 28 of the world's wealthiest nations.
Altogether, 52 out of every 1000 girls aged between 15 and 19 in the United States gave birth, while the United Kingdom topped the list in Europe---and came second overall---with just over 30 births in 1000 teenagers. At the other end of the scale Korea, Japan, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Sweden had a rate of less than seven births per 1000 teenagers.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7350/1354
17 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayer, "The State" is not teaching sex per se here, rather advising people how to avoid disease.
I believe sex and religion are two very important subjects for
people that the state should not be meddling in, those should
be left up to the families. I am not saying the state does not
have an interest in preventing disease; I'm saying I don't want
the state telling my kids what is and is not acceptable when it
comes to religion or sex. If the st ...[text shortened]... nts authority, because what the state
says is law, isn't adding to anything to parents.
Kelly
It's a public health issue.