Originally posted by newdad27What a load of cod's bollocks.
it isn't about sex, it's about preserving marriage (between a man and a woman) since that is best for society and raising children. The liberal ideology of "anything goes" leads to less marriage, more co-habitation, less committment, etc.....and the children are worse off. Nobody cares what homosexuals do in their own homes but to say they deserve the "legal" right to be married is where the arguement is.
There are many examples (old civilizations, Kibbutz's, etc.) where co-habitation and the rearing of children in groups was very succesful.
I personally think (basing this on criminal statistics from the US, England vs. the rest of Europe) that individulisation is the main problem of many of the more aggressive problems we percieve in society (although I have to admit to reading an article when in college, a good 12 years ago, that suggested that society now (early 90's) was less violent than during the Victorian era).
The legal right to marry? I presume you mean the discussion is about whether or not they have the same rights (to property, etc.) as married couples?
Why on earth not?
social conservatives say that if homosexuals are allowed to marry, then people could marry oak trees or animals. I don't see the logical progression here, but I'm not a social conservative.
homosexual marriage is framed as an issue that could destroy society as we know it so that Republicans can position themselves as "Protectors of the Good and Moral". They tell us that if Liberals take over, we'll have an "anything goes" policy where everyone is forced to be gay and molest children and pray to Satan daily. It's all just manipulation of fear to stay in power. Christians in the US see themselves as being "under attack" simply because they can't impose their rules on others anymore. For example, the whole school prayer issue: Christians often say the government won't allow prayer in schools, but you can pray whenever you want in a public school. The school itself is not allowed to force everyone to pray to Jesus, and Christians see this as an erosion of their "rights".
they want you to think that heterosexual marriage is holding our society together, that our society's "stability" depends on it. this is all fear mongering to get out the Christian vote. are all Christian marriages good, perfect, holding society together? There are plenty of deeply repressed, horribly unhappy married heterosexual who are so quietly desperate they would love to believe they're keeping society stable. how else do you justify impotent misery?
hey Christians- did you ever read the story of Lot's daughters? it's a good one.
Originally posted by sasquatch672Let's fact it, both Democrats and Republicans ... equally gutless and out of touch ... love any issue that gives them an excuse to avoid dealing with illegal immigration.
For my European friends who might not be familiar with some of the intricacies of American politics, even-year politics differ from odd-year politics in that Republicans trot out the "ban the gay marriage" constitutional amendment because they know this will get social conservatives riled up. It's like a child's game. Tell social conservatives that ga ...[text shortened]...
Can anybody help me out?
The whole issue is a red herring in MHO. If you look at the history of modern marriage, you find the concept of being licenced by the state to be married and marriage in a church to be only an institution of the last couple hundred years. In Roman times for instance, two people who both tell their freinds they are living together, thats all that was required to be 'married'. Straight or gay, no dif.
Then even the RCC didn't get into the marriage thing till governments decided to do the licence thing and even then not till around 1750 or so, so the whole concept goes against most of the history of mankind.
What we have now is just another example of what religion and politics have done in yet another attempt to control humanity on every front, its a loss of freedom issue.
Originally posted by newdad27The problem with this argument is, why focus on gay marriage? Why not march outside the Capitol demanding a ban on heterosexual de facto partnerships?
it isn't about sex, it's about preserving marriage (between a man and a woman) since that is best for society and raising children. The liberal ideology of "anything goes" leads to less marriage, more co-habitation, less committment, etc.....and the children are worse off. Nobody cares what homosexuals do in their own homes but to say they deserve the "legal" right to be married is where the arguement is.
I actually happen to agree with the notion that marriage is, all other things being equal (eg not domestic violence) the best environment for raising children. But it's far from a convincing argument in THIS context, because the argument has already been lost. There are already a very large number of children being brought up outside of heterosexual marriage.
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Originally posted by orfeoI knew a kid brought up by lesbians. Nice person. And intelligent too.
I actually happen to agree with the notion that marriage is, all other things being equal (eg not domestic violence) the best environment for raising children.
I also knew a person brought up in a loving nuclear family. Shame she wasn't the same.
Oh, and if we recognize de facto couples - who dont even have children - there is no reason to not recognize gays. Whether in marriage or civil unions.
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Originally posted by newdad27I understand.
no standards on marriage devalues it more.
If we allow an extra 2% of the population to marry, all the heterosexual couples won't feel as special.
I guess all the money that the governments throw at families just isn't enough - you won't feel your marriage empowered unless another group can't marry.
Originally posted by NargagunaYou say this quite a lot. Would you care to explain just what you feel is wrong with the current UK government and what you feel would be a better alternative and possibly why?
Just like our shambolic 'government'. But that's what demcracy leads to.
I can understand that it isn't any of my business but as someone who no longer lives in the UK it would interesting to hear what you feel are the problems.