Anger, Lies, and Misinformation...

Originally posted by Melanerpes
In other words - we would be expanding Medicaid so that it covered everyone -- but once your income is above a certain level, you would have to pay a premium equal to what's on the private market.

A big advantage is that people would understand how this worked, and we wouldn't need to have a whole bunch of new rules and mechanisms that the average person can't make sense out of.

Sounds good to me.

It would also improve private insurance by adding some competition to the market in the form of Medicaid. The private insurance companies know that if they screw over their clients, they'll simply go to Medicaid instead. Everyone wins.

Incidentally, I proposed this a couple of months ago on this thread.

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=115906

3) I would expand Medicare and/or Medicaid to optionally cover all Americans, except that the premiums would be based on a scale that changes based on income and available resources. For the highest income/ resource bracket, the Medicare premiums should be approximately the same as current HMO rates. I would allow people to keep their private insurance to the extent that they want to.

Originally posted by uzless
You end up with a 2 tier system of health care. The best doctors go to the private system and the bad ones go to the public system.

The standard of care will be different. You go back to the rich getting better treatment than the poor. Welcome to the age of the new Aristocracy.

No reason why doctors couldn't participate in both systems - much would depend on how much the public option or Medicaid was willing to reimburse those doctors.

But, by definition, there are only a small number of "best doctors" out there. No matter what system you use, most people have to make do with someone who isn't the best, and in most cases, you don't need the best doctor. If I have an achy elbow, I don't need to go to James Andrews for Tommy John surgery.

Originally posted by sh76
Sounds good to me.

It would also improve private insurance by adding some competition to the market in the form of Medicaid. The private insurance companies know that if they screw over their clients, they'll simply go to Medicaid instead. Everyone wins.

Incidentally, I proposed this a couple of months ago on this thread.

http://www.redhotpawn.com/boa ...[text shortened]... ates. I would allow people to keep their private insurance to the extent that they want to.[/i]

I wonder why something like this wasn't proposed to begin with.

the main issue would be to see what the CBO would expect this idea to cost.

Originally posted by sh76

Welcome to the real World. People who have more money can buy better stuff. It's called capitalism. You work harder. you make more money. You get to buy better stuff.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ec_s0X-M5Q

that's exactly what i've been saying all along. Americans do not live in the same reality that the rest of us do.

In the rest of the worldd, Health care is not a comodity to be purchased.

Just because you are rich, it does not mean your life is any more important than a poor person.

A good proportion of Americans will never understand this. Yourself included it seems.

Originally posted by sh76
Why shouldn't you have the choice to buy something better if you can afford to?

All fruit should cost the same. Why should you be able to eat fresher apples just because you're willing to go to a better market and buy fresher fruit?

All restaurants should charge the same. Why should you be able to eat better food and get better service just because you ca ...[text shortened]... that the American people will never swallow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ec_s0X-M5Q

Actually, capitalism just means the government guarantees and protects your right to ownership of capital.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
No reason why doctors couldn't participate in both systems - much would depend on how much the public option or Medicaid was willing to reimburse those doctors.

But, by definition, there are only a small number of "best doctors" out there. No matter what system you use, most people have to make do with someone who isn't the best, and in most cases, you ...[text shortened]... ctor. If I have an achy elbow, I don't need to go to James Andrews for Tommy John surgery.

Doctors will only want to participate in the system that PAYS THEM the most money. Why work for 100K when you could work for 500K?

In Canada, our Conservative government wants to set up a 2 tier health care system whereby if you want to bypass the waiting list you can visit a private doctor and pay for that service out of your own pocket. The problem is that we don't have enough Doctors as it is. You'd have to replace doctors that leave the public sector for the private sector. Our med schools can't keep up as it so where do we get the extra doctors from?

The conservatives want to fill that gap with foreign trained doctors. Problem is that those foreign trained doctors are largely from african/3rd world countries that studied and have experience with malaria/typhoid/plague and not cancer/heart disease like you find in N. America. So, they aren't really qualified.

The same thing will happen in the US. There won't be enough doctors to fill the needs of the public system. The standard of care will go down and inexperienced doctors will be performing heart surgery on poor people because they can't afford to pay the premium price for a good doctor in the private system.

Americans may be ok with this. The rest of the world isn't. We don't live in an Aristocracy anymore. That's why the middle-class revolted against this type of system centuries ago. Looks like you yanks are itching to return to it.

Originally posted by NimzovichLarsen
the government can't run anything, why would h.c. be different.

And you can't stop defense spending, that's absurd--which is why Obama won't do it.

Yeah, our military is terrible. We need to get the government out of the war business.

Nobody said to stop defense spending. Don't give us Strawmen.

Originally posted by uzless
Doctors will only want to participate in the system that PAYS THEM the most money. Why work for 100K when you could work for 500K?

In Canada, our Conservative government wants to set up a 2 tier health care system whereby if you want to bypass the waiting list you can visit a private doctor and pay for that service out of your own pocket. The problem is t this type of system centuries ago. Looks like you yanks are itching to return to it.

This gets to a major concern.

The Baby Boomers are retiring, and all sorts of new medical advances are being made that will allow many people to live better in their old age. So the demand for healthcare services are rising rapidly. Are there going to be enough providers to keep up?

So much of the debate is focused on the demand side -- moving money around so that poorer or higher risk people can afford care. But at the end of the day, the big thing that's going to prevent people from getting care is the supply side.

If we hope to provide affordable quality care to everyone, we need to get a lot more people to go into the medical field - and we need to get going on this now (since it takes many years to train a good doctor). You see tons of ads urging people to join the military ("Be All You Can Be"..."An Army of One"..."We'll make you Army Strong" ). Why not a similar ad campaign urging people to go become a physician or a surgeon. We'll also need to build more medical schools and more hospitals.

Originally posted by uzless
that's exactly what i've been saying all along. Americans do not live in the same reality that the rest of us do.

In the rest of the worldd, Health care is not a comodity to be purchased.

Just because you are rich, it does not mean your life is any more important than a poor person.

A good proportion of Americans will never understand this. Yourself included it seems.

Really now?

Other than Canada, in how many countries are you not allowed to buy your own supplemental healthcare?

You keep asserting this dichotomy of "Rest of the World" vs. United States. In fact, in most countries, either healthcare is privatized, health insurance is privatized or you may purchase additional care or insurance if you so choose.

Your conservatives in Canada, with the plan to allow supplemental privately funded care, is a breath of sanity. Congratulate them for me, will you?

Originally posted by bill718
Town hall meetings have recently become the scene of angry, loud, and ignorant people intent on spreading Lies and Misinformation.

Lie Number 1. Big Government is taking over healthcare in America! Anyone who has bothered to read this proposal will see it's being introduced as an option...not a requirement. This option is designed for people who do not qu ...[text shortened]... y a much larger percentage of Americans than the fortune 500 group and do the right thing.🙂

The government has already taken over, the GM, now they are "government motors", most or all of the banks, what makes you think they will stop there? The liberals have already legalized birth control, abortion, now what is the easiest way to fund them? THE TAX-PAYER'S DOLLARS OF COURSE!!! Since a lot of people don't agree with it (hopefully) or at least won't be paying for it (namely not everyone who agrees with it is going to pay for it, even if they could) The government has "decided" to socialize healthcare to pay for it, you know how they get with money, Obama has already spent 2 trillion dollars since Christmas, that's why people won't get social security because it's not a pension fund anymore, but they just they "look over it" namely they take it.

Originally posted by daniel58
The government has already taken over, the GM, now they are "government motors", most or all of the banks, what makes you think they will stop there? The liberals have already legalized birth control, abortion, now what is the easiest way to fund them? THE TAX-PAYER'S DOLLARS OF COURSE!!! Since a lot of people don't agree with it (hopefully) or at least s not a pension fund anymore, but they just they "look over it" namely they take it.

people won't get social security because it's not a pension fund anymore

Funny thing is,its not written anywhere that it is a pension fund.Americans are not garunteed by law to get any of it upon retirement. It is a tax.Plain and simple. And most people do not realize this.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
[b] people won't get social security because it's not a pension fund anymore

Funny thing is,its not written anywhere that it is a pension fund.Americans are not garunteed by law to get any of it upon retirement. It is a tax.Plain and simple. And most people do not realize this.[/b]

State pensions aren't guaranteed anywhere in the world - the state can just change laws regarding the state pensions whenever they like.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
[b] people won't get social security because it's not a pension fund anymore

Funny thing is,its not written anywhere that it is a pension fund.Americans are not garunteed by law to get any of it upon retirement. It is a tax.Plain and simple. And most people do not realize this.[/b]

I said it WAS, a pension fund, if it's JUST a tax then why not make a random tax?

Originally posted by utherpendragon
[b] people won't get social security because it's not a pension fund anymore

Funny thing is,its not written anywhere that it is a pension fund.Americans are not garunteed by law to get any of it upon retirement. It is a tax.Plain and simple. And most people do not realize this.[/b]

you are correct -- nothing in Social Security is guaranteed -- but nothing the government does is guaranteed, even the Constitution can be changed.

But I am confident that Social Security isn't going anywhere (except for some relatively modest modifications) -- there's a reason it's called the "third rail"

Originally posted by daniel58
I said it WAS, a pension fund, if it's JUST a tax then why not make a random tax?

it should be just a random tax

but when they created Social Security, it was decided that it would be really awesome if they could ensure that all the money spent on Social Security benefits would come completely from revenues raised by the Social Security payroll tax. So they created this trust fund that doesn't really exist (except in an accountant's book) and now everyone's worried that the trust fund (which doesn't really exist) is running out of money.

Phooey