31 Dec 22
@no1marauder saidYou KNOW he and his weapons are not going to kill thousands. You sound like Sonhouse.
Actually I and others have directly addressed the effects of releasing Bout five years earlier than he would have otherwise been released.
Your hysterical hyperbole aside, he isn't going to "kill thousands" even if he returns to his old career - which is quite unlikely.
Do you believe that the executives at Boeing and/or Grumman "kill thousands" by selling weapons all around the world? How about handgun manufacturers in the US?
31 Dec 22
2 edits
@averagejoe1 saidThen answer my question:
Are you suggesting that he ‘didn’t pull the triggers”? Would you enlighten our readers to the Accessory to Murder rule? He is indeed responsible for every murder by weapons he provided for death.
You gonna tell a jury he is innocent? Marauder?
"Do you believe that the executives at Boeing and/or Grumman "kill thousands" by selling weapons all around the world? How about handgun manufacturers in the US?"
Bout was not convicted of any murders. A thread might be worth starting discussing his actual conviction, which was a "sting" operation which not only wouldn't have resulted in any actual weapons changing hands but even if it had been real would have been a foreign national supplying weapons to a guerrilla group that had been fighting against a repressive government for more than 50 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Armed_Forces_of_Colombia
IMO, that is a civil war the US had no business ever meddling in and foreign nationals should have been free to support FARC.
31 Dec 22
@no1marauder saidYes, you are correct about Grumman and Boeing and the pawn shop dealer. But I think as a lawyer, you might see a jury would look at the intent of this evil person as he sits at the defense table, considering all the facts, and also knowing into whose hands the weapons were going in enter
Then answer my question:
"Do you believe that the executives at Boeing and/or Grumman "kill thousands" by selling weapons all around the world? How about handgun manufacturers in the US?"
Bout was not convicted of any murders. A thread might be worth starting discussing his actual conviction, which was a "sting" operation which not only wouldn't have resulted in any ...[text shortened]... the US had no business ever meddling in and foreign nationals should have been free to support FARC.
Following your logic, this man should have never been convicted of anything, since I don’t think he pulled a trigger. So back to the issue, should we have let this guy out of jail to ply his trade, to bring the famous basketball player home.? It is difficult to get a yes, or a no out of a liberal.
31 Dec 22
May I refresh the issue? What if I went to Poland tomorrow to go fishing and was put in jail over there. I want to get out of jail and come back to the USA. My lawyer asks the USA to swap this man who trades arms globally, known as the angel of death. What would you do if you were Joe Biden.
Standing by……
31 Dec 22
@averagejoe1 saidIt's not difficult to get a yes or no from me on this issue; I answered it months ago.
Yes, you are correct about Grumman and Boeing and the pawn shop dealer. But I think as a lawyer, you might see a jury would look at the intent of this evil person as he sits at the defense table, considering all the facts, and also knowing into whose hands the weapons were going in enter
Following your logic, this man should have never been convicted of anything, sinc ...[text shortened]... o bring the famous basketball player home.? It is difficult to get a yes, or a no out of a liberal.
No weapons were actually going to anyone but even if the scheme had been real, the weapons would have went to a rebel group that has been fighting a repressive government for decades. How is that any of the US' business and how is it just to punish a foreign national for supporting that group just because the US government decides to support the government?
Maybe you should start answering questions.
31 Dec 22
@averagejoe1 saidThat would depend on what you were jailed for, if your punishment was disproportionate to the crime committed and many other factors, all of which were discussed here regarding the Griner case.
May I refresh the issue? What if I went to Poland tomorrow to go fishing and was put in jail over there. I want to get out of jail and come back to the USA. My lawyer asks the USA to swap this man who trades arms globally, known as the angel of death. What would you do if you were Joe Biden.
Standing by……
Why are you insisting on relitigating it when there was an entire thread already done on it?
31 Dec 22
@no1marauder saidCertainly, with all due respect, and I take no issue with your stuff, but do you see how you veer off of a very, very, very simple question very simple subject. I am asking you if I were in jail for using too many fish hooks in Poland on my fishing trip, I ask you , Marsuder, if it would make sense for the US government to turn that man loose, whoever he is, and whatever he has done, to get me home. That is the simple question throughout this three. .
It's not difficult to get a yes or no from me on this issue; I answered it months ago.
No weapons were actually going to anyone but even if the scheme had been real, the weapons would have went to a rebel group that has been fighting a repressive government for decades. How is that any of the US' business and how is it just to punish a foreign national for supporting t ...[text shortened]... the US government decides to support the government?
Maybe you should start answering questions.
31 Dec 22
@no1marauder saidSonhouse says it was an innocuous minuscule amount of drugs. So I am saying, my Poland fishing trip situation was using “too many hooks”, a minuscule reason for being jailed..
That would depend on what you were jailed for, if your punishment was disproportionate to the crime committed and many other factors, all of which were discussed here regarding the Griner case.
Why are you insisting on relitigating it when there was an entire thread already done on it?
So I ask you once again, all foregoing posts notwithstanding, should the USA save my ass by trading a known arms dealer.?
Whew.
Why do you not treat this as the simple question which it is?
31 Dec 22
1 edit
@averagejoe1 saidDid Poland give you a 9 year prison sentence?
Sonhouse says it was an innocuous minuscule amount of drugs. So I am saying, my Poland fishing trip situation was using “too many hooks”, a minuscule reason for being jailed..
So I ask you once again, all foregoing posts notwithstanding, should the USA save my ass by trading a known arms dealer.?
Whew.
Why do you not treat this as the simple question which it is?
One can always come up with ridiculous hypothetical situations but decisions of this sort are based on the actual facts and circumstances. The question is simple only because you leave out significant facts necessary to answer it.
31 Dec 22
@no1marauder saidWhy get this way. Yes , 9 years and we are holding a polish bad guy in our prison. Poles want him back.
Did Poland give you a 9 year prison sentence?
One can always come up with ridiculous hypothetical situations but decisions of this sort are based on the actual facts and circumstances. The question is simple only because you leave out significant facts necessary to answer it.
I did indeed omit that I am a shepherd (sheepherder, ) from Iowa , relatively unknown, and have never played basketball, I don’t hate America,
31 Dec 22
@averagejoe1 saidNone of your "omissions" are relevant but they do show what right wingers are really mad at i.e. they think Griner shouldn't have been released because they don't like her political views - something that should have no bearing on such a decision (of course, it's a pathetic lie that she "hates America" though I'm sure you're just parroting what you have been told countless times on the right wing propaganda sites you seem to get 99% of your (dis)information from).
Why get this way. Yes , 9 years and we are holding a polish bad guy in our prison. Poles want him back.
I did indeed omit that I am a shepherd (sheepherder, ) from Iowa , relatively unknown, and have never played basketball, I don’t hate America,
The US government would presumably have other means of persuasion regarding the Polish government, a US ally, that were lacking as regards to Russia. Again, the actual circumstances are relevant to answering your "simple" question but surely the US government could and should work towards getting your hypothetical fisherman released (no matter that you "hate America" that is, what this country is evolving into).
31 Dec 22
@AverageJoe1
REAL presidents would not be taking in the fact you would represent the zombie crowd. Biden TRIED to include Whelan in the deal but it was PUTIN who refused but to you zombies, it is STILL Biden's fault but using that logic tell me why your god king X45 refused to let the deal go down 2 straight years. Oh, I get it. THAT was Biden's fault also.
31 Dec 22
@no1marauder said“ don’t play the national anthem at the games“. A hater in my book.
None of your "omissions" are relevant but they do show what right wingers are really mad at i.e. they think Griner shouldn't have been released because they don't like her political views - something that should have no bearing on such a decision (of course, it's a pathetic lie that she "hates America" though I'm sure you're just parroting what you have been told countles ...[text shortened]... fisherman released (no matter that you "hate America" that is, what this country is evolving into).
Her political views have nothing to do with my ‘simple ‘ question. So, trade the criminal for her, you say, but you typically avoid saying that we should trade the criminal for the shepherd. You are non-persuasive With your ‘Poland being a US ally’ slant. Ok. So now I have to change the country to Chad or Cuba. Now, if Chad or Bangladesh has me in prison, do you trade the criminal for me, or not.? Geez. Yes, the USA works toward getting me released, blah blah, but the question is should, in the end, I be swapped for the criminal?
Geez. Why her and not me? Is she One of those people that liberals call celebrity?
31 Dec 22
@averagejoe1 saidWhy do you always play the hate card ??
Why get this way. Yes , 9 years and we are holding a polish bad guy in our prison. Poles want him back.
I did indeed omit that I am a shepherd (sheepherder, ) from Iowa , relatively unknown, and have never played basketball, I don’t hate America,
Who hates America ?
As a Canadian I don't hate America.
But I sometimes wonder what the religious right wants to change America to.
Maybe that is what a lot of Americans hate.
They don't hate America. They hate your vision for America.
Oh well ...... democracy will sort that one out. Unless someone decides you don't need democracy any more.
31 Dec 22
@averagejoe1 saidBecause you are pathetically misinformed and stubbornly ignorant, it is virtually impossible to discuss anything with you in a rational manner.
“ don’t play the national anthem at the games“. A hater in my book.
Her political views have nothing to do with my ‘simple ‘ question. So, trade the criminal for her, you say, but you typically avoid saying that we should trade the criminal for the shepherd. You are non-persuasive With your ‘Poland being a US ally’ slant. Ok. So now I have to change the country ...[text shortened]... the criminal?
Geez. Why her and not me? Is she One of those people that liberals call celebrity?
I gave my answer several times; whether a particular prisoner swap should be authorized depends on many factors and circumstances. Griner's "celebrity status" shouldn't be a factor nor should her or your political views.