21 Oct 04
Originally posted by Remora91because its another living being, do you consider yourself to be a part of your mothers body???
I can make my own thoughts and decisions without bbarr. And I do think it's part of the woman's body. It's growing inside of her. How can it not be part of her body? 😕
22 Oct 04
Originally posted by ivanhoeStop the presses! Ivanhoe presented an argument!
No bbarr, an individual egg or an individual sperm cannot develop consciousness, only after they've melted together and formed a new, different and unique entity, a new human being.
.... 😛
Edit: Apparently it isn't that easy after all, otherwise you would be able to understand these most simple things, Bbarr.
.... by the way, maybe you shoul ...[text shortened]... Bbarr ... we are all politicians ... some are disguised as philosophers, some aren't .....
O.K., let's take this slow. Here is what you claimed:
an individual egg or an individual sperm cannot develop consciousness, only after they've melted together and formed a new, different and unique entity, a new human being.
Here's the response:
You haven't shown that an individual egg or sperm don't have the potential to develop consciousness. You have only identified a necessary condition for the actualization of that potential. All your argument establishes is that the individual egg or sperm do not contain within themselves all that is necessary for their potential to develop consciousness to be actualized.
Similarly, an early fetus doesn't contain within itself all that is necessary for its potential to develop consciousness to be actualized. There are necessary conditions for the actualization of the early fetus' potential to develop consciousness, just as there are necessary conditions for the actualization of the individual egg's or sperm's potential to develop consciousness. One of these necessary conditions is that the mother doesn't have an abortion.
So, there are necessary conditions for both the individual egg or sperm and the early fetus to develop consciousness. So, if you think that the early fetus has rights in virtue of possessing the potential to develop consciousness, you are committed to the claim that individual eggs and sperm have rights also.
Further, neither you nor LoTChessboard have presented any reason to think that being a potential X is sufficient for having the rights of an X. So, not only does this view lead to absurd consequences, there is no reason to accept in the first place.
Congratulations on presenting an argument, though. Let's hope you make a habit of it! 😀
Cheers!
22 Oct 04
Originally posted by StarValleyWyHi Mike, nice to hear from you and thanks for the kind words.
Hi Bennet.
I really do admire your work and logic more lately.
I wonder why?
How you doing, other than the usual?
Did you enjoy the summer Class(s)? Woe... Wait. I forgot. You are always the optomist! By the way... I still think that comes from being able to pose questions in lieu of fretting over answers.
Anyway... You and yours well and happy i hope?
I'm doing well, though I'm a bit overworked at the moment. This is much more satisfying than being underworked, however, so I can't complain. The summer debate class went well, though it is hard keeping kids interested in debate for 5 hours/day when it's beautiful outside.
All I do lately is fret over answers, and whether potential answers are coherent, consistent with other answers, empirically adequate, etc.
My wife just took the GRE today, so now she is napping. She is about to start applying for graduate school in history, and is constantly stressed about that. We're both healthy and happy, so, again, we can't complain.
I hope you are well,
Bennett
22 Oct 04
1 edit
Originally posted by bbarrGreat! Now masterbation is not an option.
[b]Stop the presses! Ivanhoe presented an argument!
O.K., let's take this slow. Here is what you claimed:
[i]an individual egg or an individual sperm cannot develop consciousness, only after they've melted together and formed a ...[text shortened]... nt, though. Let's hope you make a habit of it![/b] 😀
Cheers![/b]
Masterbation stills a beating heart!
22 Oct 04
Originally posted by howardgeeIm disagree. An unborn child (feotus) is a living "entity" that can probably feel pain...what you're saying is analogous to deciding to terminate all people in a coma state because they do not have a "perspective" or terminate people born without appendages or fully-functioning brains because they are not "fully formed", and doing so would constitute murder...
Chancermechanic: you state that "maybe we should look at it from the unborn child's perspective..."
Well, an unborn child doesn't have a perspective: it is in a womb.
It is not an independent, fully formed entity: that is why abortion is not murder.
22 Oct 04
Originally posted by chancremechanicA fetus doesn't develop the ability to feel pain until the ncecessary neurophysiology has developed, and that doesn't occur until the second trimester. In the first trimester, the fetus has no perspective because it lacks the necessary causal infrastructure, the wiring isn't there, and neither is consciousness. You're right that once is conscious, it has a perspective (isn't that tautologous?). I have no idea what being fully formed has to do with abortion. If being fully formed was necessary for having a right to life, nobody who had yet reached puberty would have a right to life. 😕
Im disagree. An unborn child (feotus) is a living "entity" that can probably feel pain...what you're saying is analogous to deciding to terminate all people in a coma state because they do not have a "perspective" or terminate people born without appendages or fully-functioning brains because they are not "fully formed", and doing so would constitute murder...