09 Feb 07
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070208/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_food_crunch
CARACAS, Venezuela - Meat cuts vanished from Venezuelan supermarkets this week, leaving only unsavory bits like chicken feet, while costly artificial sweeteners have increasingly replaced sugar, and many staples sell far above government-fixed prices.
President Hugo Chavez's administration blames the food supply problems on unscrupulous speculators, but industry officials say government price controls that strangle profits are responsible. Authorities on Wednesday raided a warehouse in Caracas and seized seven tons of sugar hoarded by vendors unwilling to market the inventory at the official price.
Major private supermarkets suspended sales of beef earlier this week after one chain was shut down for 48 hours for pricing meat above government-set levels, but an agreement reached with the government on Wednesday night promises to return meat to empty refrigerator shelves.
Shortages have sporadically appeared with items from milk to coffee since early 2003, when Chavez began regulating prices for 400 basic products as a way to counter inflation and protect the poor.
Yet inflation has soared to an accumulated 78 percent in the last four years in an economy awash in petrodollars, and food prices have increased particularly swiftly, creating a widening discrepancy between official prices and the true cost of getting goods to market in Venezuela.
Shortages have increased significantly as well as violations of price controls," Central Bank director Domingo Maza Zavala told the Venezuelan broadcaster Union Radio on Thursday. "The difference between real market prices and controlled prices is very high."
Will the world ever learn that this doesn't work?
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by RedmikeWhich ones? The ones buying above government set prices or the ones seeling there products at not a loss and therefore above government set prices?
You're right of course.
These attempts to cling onto discredited free market ideas will never work.
Do you agree that these people breaking the law should be brought to justice?
Gonzalo Asuaje, president of the meat processors association Afrigo, said that costs and demand have surged but in four years the government has barely raised the price of beef, which now stands at $1.82 per pound. Simply getting beef to retailers now costs $2.41 per pound without including any markup, he said.
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by MerkThe people illegally selling above the set prices.
Which ones? The ones buying above government set prices or the ones seeling there products at not a loss and therefore above government set prices?
Gonzalo Asuaje, president of the meat processors association Afrigo, said that costs and demand have surged but in four years the government has barely raised the price of beef, which now stands at $1.82 per poun ...[text shortened]... imply getting beef to retailers now costs $2.41 per pound without including any markup, he said.
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by RedmikeNow Redmike, Bring the market vendors to "justice" because they broke a government law. I mean I would figure you would see how this would hurt the economy. Even one of Carl marx's influences Mills and Utilitarianism, would say that to obey a law that is made but would hurt society (which it sees to be doing), is morally wrong.
You're right of course.
These attempts to cling onto discredited free market ideas will never work.
Do you agree that these people breaking the law should be brought to justice?
And people need to realize that an economy nor government can not work successfully with Capitalist Economy with a socially minded government. You can not adopted a bastardization of the two.
Or to go to just plain marxism that you should punish the men who raised their prices because they are taking an unfair advantage of the poor, poor. Now all this will bring is sure they will have nice cheap meat for a few days, months, may be even a year or two till the vendor cannot afford to remain open, closes his doors and they all will starve together. Or at the very most will come out of this the government will nationalize the meat stores and then begin to charge even more than the original vendor price.
Now personally I could not understand and will never understand why some one wishs to believe in such a philosophy of death. I do not understand how some one could say they value the lives of the people but will sacrifce them so easily when they can.
But hey who knows which philosophy might be right, after all who is John Galt?
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by RedmikeAbsolutely. I think Chavez should throw all free-marketers in the gulag. All dissent must be crushed. Furthermore, I think he needs a Guevera. All of the lefties walking around in their Che shirts are embrassing something that's so, yesterday. A new generation of socialist communist sympathizers should have a new murderer of a new generation to pay homage to.
The people illegally selling above the set prices.
In all honesty, Chavez is kind of in a bind on this one. It sounds like this practice of selling for a profit is almost industry wide. It's going to be difficult to put the entire cattle industry in jail. He really doesn't have much choice. He is going to have to make an example of a few of them, but I don't think it's wise to lock them all away. That will bring heat and a void in distribution at the exact moment he is going to want distribution to catch up.
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by MerkSeems like we can learn something from Chavez. The US government could make a law declaring that all Lexus, Mercades, and Porcse automobiles would be price controlled at $10 each. If any dealer tries to charge more, then lock them in jail and throw away the key for direct violation of the law.
Absolutely. I think Chavez should throw all free-marketers in the gulag. All dissent must be crushed. Furthermore, I think he needs a Guevera. All of the lefties walking around in their Che shirts are embrassing something that's so, yesterday. A new generation of socialist communist sympathizers should have a new murderer of a new generation to pay homage to.
...[text shortened]... nd a void in distribution at the exact moment he is going to want distribution to catch up.
How dare these meat retailers try to make a profit off their investment of time and money. The government may not produce a single pound of beef, but by George they can set the price so that all can be fat.
Wait... why $10 each? Why not $1 each? No need to exclude the bottom rung of society.
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by MerkThis isn't about 'crushing dissent'. This isn't about putting 'free-marketeers' anywhere.
Absolutely. I think Chavez should throw all free-marketers in the gulag. All dissent must be crushed. Furthermore, I think he needs a Guevera. All of the lefties walking around in their Che shirts are embrassing something that's so, yesterday. A new generation of socialist communist sympathizers should have a new murderer of a new generation to pay homage to.
...[text shortened]... nd a void in distribution at the exact moment he is going to want distribution to catch up.
A democratically elected government has put measures in place to set prices. They've every right to do so. And they've every right to use whatever means they have to maintain the law.
I don't think for a minute he'll put the entire cattle industry in jail.
And I think distribution will be easily caught up by imports.
This is a time of change for the Venuzualan economy. Of course people are going to do what they can to maintain their vested interests. But, for these people, their time of plenty is over.
09 Feb 07
1 edit
Originally posted by RedmikeI'm reminded of the scene from the great Academy Award winning anti-communist film, "Dr. Zhivago." In it, Doctor Yuri Zhivago has returned home from the warfront to discover that Russia has been turned into a worker's paradise (much like modern-day Venezuela). It's unrecognizable from the Russia he left home to fight for – there's no food or heating fuel to be had, purges occur with neighbor turning against neighbor, property is reapportioned (also much like modern-day Venezuela). So rather than freeze to death during the harsh Russian winter, Zhivago -- now destitute because of wage equalization (thank you Commissar General, this is a much more equitable arrangement) -- steals some wooden fencing to burn in the fireplace. Unbeknownst to him, he has been followed by a member of the secret police who tells him: "One man stealing wood is a tragedy. A million men stealing wood is a catastrophe."
You're right of course.
These attempts to cling onto discredited free market ideas will never work.
Do you agree that these people breaking the law should be brought to justice?
My question Redmike, is this: Can you blame them? If the Venezuelans know that the foodstuffs are not going to be there tomorrow, or next week, why wouldn't speculators horde these products (which are priced artificially low)? Could it be that these same speculators know that if they don't, then someone else will? Also, why shouldn't the shop owners start selling the items out their back door for inflated prices, especially since the delivery trucks won't have any the next time they come around?
The answer is that planned economies are inefficient and prone to corruption. Conversely, the free market does the best job of getting the most products and the most choices to the most people. Clearly, incentives matter. And the moral here, Redmike, is: Don't tread on the speculator until you've walked a mile in his shoes.
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by RedmikeNow Redmike, Bring the market vendors to "justice" because they broke a government law. I mean I would figure you would see how this would hurt the economy. Even one of Carl marx's influences Mills and Utilitarianism, would say that to obey a law that is made but would hurt society (which it sees to be doing), is morally wrong.
This isn't about 'crushing dissent'. This isn't about putting 'free-marketeers' anywhere.
A democratically elected government has put measures in place to set prices. They've every right to do so. And they've every right to use whatever means they have to maintain the law.
I don't think for a minute he'll put the entire cattle industry in jail.
And ...[text shortened]... maintain their vested interests. But, for these people, their time of plenty is over.
And people need to realize that an economy nor government can not work successfully with Capitalist Economy with a socially minded government. You can not adopted a bastardization of the two.
Or to go to just plain marxism that you should punish the men who raised their prices because they are taking an unfair advantage of the poor, poor. Now all this will bring is sure they will have nice cheap meat for a few days, months, may be even a year or two till the vendor cannot afford to remain open, closes his doors and they all will starve together. Or at the very most will come out of this the government will nationalize the meat stores and then begin to charge even more than the original vendor price.
Now personally I could not understand and will never understand why some one wishs to believe in such a philosophy of death. I do not understand how some one could say they value the lives of the people but will sacrifce them so easily when they can.
But hey who knows which philosophy might be right, after all who is John Galt?
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by Redmike"A democratically elected government has put measures in place to set prices. They've every right to do so. And they've every right to use whatever means they have to maintain the law."
This isn't about 'crushing dissent'. This isn't about putting 'free-marketeers' anywhere.
A democratically elected government has put measures in place to set prices. They've every right to do so. And they've every right to use whatever means they have to maintain the law.
I don't think for a minute he'll put the entire cattle industry in jail.
And ...[text shortened]... maintain their vested interests. But, for these people, their time of plenty is over.
Certainly. He has as much right to pursue a failed policy as any other leader does. I would have a hard time coming up with aleader of any Nation that didn't, at some point, pursue a failed policy. I see no reason why Chavez should be different.
"And I think distribution will be easily caught up by imports."
Imports would be against his nationalizing policies. Also, imports will never catch up if the exporter has to sell at a loss. Which brings us to the problem of the ignorant people setting prices. People simply cannot lose money. He will have to do a better job of setting prices, or grant the industry subsidies. Either way, the money comes out of the pockets of the Venezuelan people.
"This is a time of change for the Venuzualan economy. Of course people are going to do what they can to maintain their vested interests. But, for these people, their time of plenty is over."
I agree. Wealth outside of government officials looks to be a thing of the past.
09 Feb 07
2 edits
Originally posted by MerkImports would be against his nationalising policies?
"A democratically elected government has put measures in place to set prices. They've every right to do so. And they've every right to use whatever means they have to maintain the law."
Certainly. He has as much right to pursue a failed policy as any other leader does. I would have a hard time coming up with aleader of any Nation that didn't, at some point, r."
I agree. Wealth outside of government officials looks to be a thing of the past.
You think a planned economy wouldn't have imports?
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by RedmikeNot neccessarily against policy as much as against the spirit of self-reliance. Seems the point of nationalizing is keep jobs incountry and to avoid potentially becoming victim to the policies of foreign companies.
Imports would be against his nationalising policies?
You think an planned economy wouldn't have imports?
Importing food is the same as farming out jobs, no? That's not going to keep money in Venezuela.
09 Feb 07
1 edit
Originally posted by MerkThat's not the way a socialist would see it.
Not neccessarily against policy as much as against the spirit of self-reliance. Seems the point of nationalizing is keep jobs incountry and to avoid potentially becoming victim to the policies of foreign companies.
Importing food is the same as farming out jobs, no? That's not going to keep money in Venezuela.
It isn't practical for any country to be sef-sufficient in everything, so importing goods is perfectly reasonable.
Of course, if you can import from another country with the same agenda as yourself, all the better.
This is also a major reason why the idea of socialism in one country is a non-starter, IMO.
Edit - in this particular case, I think they only plan to import extra beef to see them through the temporary shortage
09 Feb 07
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterThese aren't speculators - they are parasites.
I'm reminded of the scene from the great Academy Award winning anti-communist film, "Dr. Zhivago." In it, Doctor Yuri Zhivago has returned home from the warfront to discover that Russia has been turned into a worker's paradise (much like modern-day Venezuela). It's unrecognizable from the Russia he left home to fight for – there's no food or heat ...[text shortened]... edmike, is: Don't tread on the speculator until you've walked a mile in his shoes.
They are hoarding food to drive the price up, hoping to make a fast buck from their fellow citizens.