10 Dec 08
Originally posted by Jigtieget your facts straight:
Every time I think of it I get equally amazed at the fact that I am
actually paying taxes (!) to support the training and acquisition of
guns to an organisation full of paranoid, hyper tense, sneak-faggots
trying to pass themselves off as manly-men! Incredible, isn't it?
Can't wait 'til the day when the military is a thing of the past; somethi ...[text shortened]... p chewing, of course. I don't think it's possible
to do without that.
GAAAAAAARRRRRR!
no helmets with horns. ever. anywhere in scandinavia. period.
also, the whole pillage and plunder bit is blown way out of proportions. it was about trade trade and more trade. the only reason the plundering bit is exaggerated is because it was written down by monks and disseminated as anti-heathen propaganda. this is not to say that there wasn't any plundering, but it was much more about trade and politics.
10 Dec 08
Originally posted by mbakuninEverybody was doing it.
get your facts straight:
no helmets with horns. ever. anywhere in scandinavia. period.
also, the whole pillage and plunder bit is blown way out of proportions. it was about trade trade and more trade. the only reason the plundering bit is exaggerated is because it was written down by monks and disseminated as anti-heathen propaganda. this is not to say that there wasn't any plundering, but it was much more about trade and politics.
Good point about the horns.
11 Dec 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungA couple of notable victories by civilian militia against regular armies come to mind.....the American Revolution against England, and the armed citizenry of Spain against the French Army during the Napoleonic War. Any others anyone can recall? But, as a general rule, I am sure you are correct.
The problem with citizen militias is that they lose to professional armies. That's why we chose to have such a professional military.
11 Dec 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungQuite a few exceptions to that rule. Partly because citizen militias can rapidly become professional soldiers, and partly because they are more emotionally involved in their mission.
The problem with citizen militias is that they lose to professional armies. That's why we chose to have such a professional military.
The World's most powerful military lost to American insurgents. The French lost to the Vietcong, as did the Americans. The Russians lost to the Muhajadin in Afghanistan. The Zulu tribes also beat the vaunted British. Ghengis Khan led a citizens militia. I'm sure there are other examples as well.
The Swiss and Israeli models are militia like, in that all able bodied youth serve in the military and then are duty bound to keep their weapon at the ready when returning to civilian life.
The right to keep and bear arms in the US Constitution is about civil defense and a restraint against tyranny by the government.
11 Dec 08
Originally posted by normbenign"The French lost to the Vietcong, as did the Americans."
Quite a few exceptions to that rule. Partly because citizen militias can rapidly become professional soldiers, and partly because they are more emotionally involved in their mission.
The World's most powerful military lost to American insurgents. The French lost to the Vietcong, as did the Americans. The Russians lost to the Muhajadin in Afghanistan ...[text shortened]... the US Constitution is about civil defense and a restraint against tyranny by the government.
The US left Vietnam in the early 70's after signing the peace accord. The NVA defeated the South Vietnamese military in 1975 because the US hung the South out to dry....The US stopped sending parts, ammo and other military supplies.Just what the radicals Marxists wanted. The NVA were well supplied by the Chinese and Russians. The result was 2 million put in re-education camps many of which died. Millions of others fled in whatever would float.
GRANNY.
11 Dec 08
Originally posted by ale1552Both of those victories were largely accomplished through the aid of well-equipped professional militaries; the French in the case of the American Revolution and the British in the Peninsular War. I'm not sure that there are examples of major militaries being defeated entirely by civilian militias.
A couple of notable victories by civilian militia against regular armies come to mind.....the American Revolution against England, and the armed citizenry of Spain against the French Army during the Napoleonic War. Any others anyone can recall? But, as a general rule, I am sure you are correct.
11 Dec 08
Originally posted by ChronicLeakyPoint taken. You are correct of course.
Both of those victories were largely accomplished through the aid of well-equipped professional militaries; the French in the case of the American Revolution and the British in the Peninsular War. I'm not sure that there are examples of major militaries being defeated entirely by civilian militias.
11 Dec 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Sam The Sham"...defeated entirely by a civilian militia..."
American Revolution?
Viet Nam?
Russians in Afghanistan circa 1980 ?
French army.
ARVN, plus some Chinese and Soviet forces and weapons.
Weapons they bought from all sorts of other militaries (USA, China, Pakistan), although this one comes close if it's reasonable to call the Mujahideen "civilians", which I'm not sure of.
11 Dec 08
Originally posted by normbenignNot so. The reason Germany rolled over most of the continent in 1940 in short order is because Germany "lost" the First World War. Off they went after 1919 and invented blitzkreig as a logical response to having, on the face of it, been beaten. Meanwhile, a shockingly incompetent and inflexible generation of British and French senior officers were suddenly deemed to have been right all along after Germany collapsed for reasons other than those on the battlefield. They continued to hold considerable sway over military thinking between the wars.
The virtual disarmament of Europe following WWI provided the opportunity for Hitler to roll over most of the Continent in short order.
The U.S.Army, interms of tactics and strategy, was vastly superior and may have tipped the war against the Germans. Some historians have argued that, U.S. military achievements aside, the German Army all but "won" WW1 except that the German state imploded before actual victory could be delivered. So, Haig and Foch were hailed as successful heroes, and their nations rested on their self-deluding laurels, and the German Staff Colleges went off and figured how to win a war quickly. The French army alone in 1940 was considerably bigger than the German wehrmacht.
I contend that disarmament was not the issue although I can see how claiming that is was fits into your pre-conceived analysis. I have never come across a historian who argued that Switzerland was not invaded because it was heavily armed.
11 Dec 08
2 edits
Originally posted by mbakuninYou just made me a whole lot happier about my ancestry.
get your facts straight:
no helmets with horns. ever. anywhere in scandinavia. period.
also, the whole pillage and plunder bit is blown way out of proportions. it was about trade trade and more trade. the only reason the plundering bit is exaggerated is because it was written down by monks and disseminated as anti-heathen propaganda. this is not to say that there wasn't any plundering, but it was much more about trade and politics.
Thank you, mbakunin. 🙂
Though, apparently, there's some uncertainty as to whether or not
vikings had horns on ceremonial helmets. Which is still stupid looking,
but ok, they were humans after all. Can't really blame humans for being
a little bit weird. So long as they didn't show up in battle with horned
helmets, I'm ok with it. Should we ever find that indeed they wore
horned helmets to battle, I would like to propose the hypothesis that it
was an elaborate scheme to do the Python funniest joke kind of thing.
11 Dec 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ChronicLeakyFrench Army? In the American Revolutionary war?
"...defeated entirely by a civilian militia..."
French army.
ARVN, plus some Chinese and Soviet forces and weapons.
Weapons they bought from all sorts of other militaries (USA, China, Pakistan), although this one comes close if it's reasonable to call the Mujahideen "civilians", which I'm not sure of.
ARVN were South Vietnamese troops. Chinese and Russians?
Where did you go to school? Was Bosse de Negge a teacher there?