22 Jun 22
@shavixmir saidHahaha you need to start using a smaller bowl shav.
Surrender in protest.
Get international pressure going.
Non-compliance and resistance (think walk-outs, strikes, etc.).
Internationally, instead of sending money for weapons and weapons, do something far more constructive with those funds.
There are tons of measures that could be taken, which would have preserved the infrastructure, saved lives, etc.
Now the ...[text shortened]... , even when you know that it's going to end with burnt babies, charred mothers and rotting cadavers.
By the time international pressure had even begun to made a dent Putin would have all the opposition in his filter camps, and his puppet regime in full control of Ukraine.
I know some people like yourself would see that as a better alternative to standing up to Putin but there is no real alternative.
@vivify saidHe is, as we speak ethnically cleansing areas that do not back ‘reunification’ with heavy artillery and tanks alongside the threat of deportation and worse.
No, he seems to be interested only in pro-Russian territories near it's border. Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine just the areas that seem to back reunification. I doubt he wants the entire Ukraine or all of Georgia. That could be a continuous fight against rebels.
If you do not think that Ukraine has a right to exist just say so, or if you do not care either way just say so, but do not pretend that Russia has some legitimate case for murdering raping and torturing its close neighbours into a Russian empire.
NATO finally has a just cause and a proper threat to go head to head with and its failing miserably. They need to seriously rearm and retrain the Ukrainian forces and break the Russian blockade of the Black Sea one way or the other.
22 Jun 22
@kevcvs57 saidSo… like… uh… explain how the current situation is better…
Hahaha you need to start using a smaller bowl shav.
By the time international pressure had even begun to made a dent Putin would have all the opposition in his filter camps, and his puppet regime in full control of Ukraine.
I know some people like yourself would see that as a better alternative to standing up to Putin but there is no real alternative.
Oh, you can’t.
Because you can’t see further than anything but violence.
22 Jun 22
5 edits
@kevcvs57 saidWhat is your problem? You wrongly claim I equated NATO's invasion to Russia, and now this tripe that I think Ukraine has no right to exist? I'm pretending Russia has a "legitimate case for raping"?
He is, as we speak ethnically cleansing areas that do not back ‘reunification’ with heavy artillery and tanks alongside the threat of deportation and worse.
If you do not think that Ukraine has a right to exist just say so, or if you do not care either way just say so, but do not pretend that Russia has some legitimate case for murdering raping and torturing its close neigh ...[text shortened]... d retrain the Ukrainian forces and break the Russian blockade of the Black Sea one way or the other.
Usually you seem like a reasonable poster but when it comes to Russia you get hysterical and dole out wild accusations without a thought. I see what Marauder was talking about when he said you constantly misrepresents his statements.
22 Jun 22
@shavixmir saidIt’s not about better your alternative is not any option at all. Why didn’t the Taliban just accept NATO domination? Why didn’t Iraq just bend over and leave the west to run their country and steal their oil?
So… like… uh… explain how the current situation is better…
Oh, you can’t.
Because you can’t see further than anything but violence.
Why did the Netherlands resist the Nazis? Why did Wallace and Bruce resist the English yoke.
It’s the stink of hypocrisy that makes these threads so galling.
22 Jun 22
@vivify said“ No, he seems to be interested only in pro-Russian territories near it's border. Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine just the areas that seem to back reunification. I doubt he wants the entire Ukraine or all of Georgia. That could be a continuous fight against rebels.”
What is your problem? You wrongly claim I equated NATO's invasion to Russia, and now this tripe that I think Ukraine has no right to exist? I'm pretending Russia has a "legitimate case for raping"?
Usually you seem like a reasonable poster but when it comes to Russia you get hysterical and dole out false accusation without a thought. I see what Marauder was talking about when he said you constantly misrepresents his statements.
All of that really.
He is focusing on the east because the Ukrainians with support pushed him back from the outskirts of Kiev. He wants the whole of Ukraine under his boot or destroyed completely- he’ll settle for the Donbas if he has to but he’ll only have to if we give the Ukrainians the firepower to make him settle for the Donbas.
Do you seriously think that the areas he’s attacking right now are pro ‘reunification’ whatever that means this side of the rabbit hole. Ukraine is a fully recognised sovereign state it cannot be reunified it can only be brutally conquered.
So what if he just sits in the Donbas and pummels central and western Ukraine for years? Is it ok with you reasonable types if we give the Ukrainians some stuff to hit back with?
Russia does not want peace with an independent sovereign Ukraine it wants a vassal state at best or one huge bomb crater at worst and then he’ll move in to the next neighbour who has a few ex colonial Russians left over from imperial occupation.
My guess would be the Baltic states. He’s already making aggressive noises in their direction.
22 Jun 22
@kevcvs57 saidRussia can take Ukraine at any time. Russia could've taken over all over Ukraine in 2014 but didn't. Russia could've also taken Georgia at any time but only wanted the pro-Russian areas to be independent. This makes it seem that Putin isn't interested in conquering entire nations at this point.
Do you seriously think that the areas he’s attacking right now are pro ‘reunification’ whatever that means this side of the rabbit hole. Ukraine is a fully recognised sovereign state it cannot be reunified it can only be brutally conquered.
So what if he just sits in the Donbas and pummels central and western Ukraine for years? Is it ok with you reasonable types if we give ...[text shortened]... ion.
My guess would be the Baltic states. He’s already making aggressive noises in their direction.
Make sense?
And no, Putin isn't justified, Russia's actions are horrific. I don't feel the need to constantly restate that, just understand this is my position going forward, and read all posts regarding the invasion that I make in light of that.
22 Jun 22
@kevcvs57 saidThe areas where most of the fighting is taking place are almost exclusively ones where the Opposition Platform for Life carried in the last parliamentary elections. That party's leader was arrested last year and charged with treason. The party has now been banned as supposedly too "pro-Russian".
“ No, he seems to be interested only in pro-Russian territories near it's border. Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine just the areas that seem to back reunification. I doubt he wants the entire Ukraine or all of Georgia. That could be a continuous fight against rebels.”
All of that really.
He is focusing on the east because the Ukrainians with support pushed him back fr ...[text shortened]... ion.
My guess would be the Baltic states. He’s already making aggressive noises in their direction.
So it's unclear what the residents would chose in a free and fair election. Ukranian oppression of their ethnic Russian minority has greatly increased since 2014 and it would not be shocking if many, if not most, would choose to detach the territory they are majorities in from a nation that seems to view them as enemies and traitors.
22 Jun 22
@vivify saidWell that’s where we disagree then. If Putin could have taken Ukraine he definitely would have. Do you think he went as far as the suburbs of Kiev for a jolly. He over estimated his own conventional reach and underestimated Ukrainian resistance and how much support NATO and the west was going to give them.
Russia can take Ukraine at any time. Russia could've taken over all over Ukraine in 2014 but didn't. Russia could've also taken Georgia at any time but only wanted the pro-Russian areas to be independent. This makes it seem that Putin isn't interested in conquering entire nations at this point.
Make sense?
And no, Putin isn't justified, Russia's actions are horrif ...[text shortened]... s my position going forward, and read all posts regarding the invasion that I make in light of that.
The Donbas is perhaps something he’ll settle for but he will still want to destabilise the rest of Ukraine at least with the goal of preventing it genuinely achieving its aim of joining the cultural and economic community to the west. I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again the biggest threat Ukraine represents to Putin and his regime is a prosperous democratic Slavic state on its border because that’s when Russians will start asking why not us. Not helping Ukraine to achieve that condemns Russians to just as bleak a future as the Ukrainians.
22 Jun 22
3 edits
@kevcvs57 saidYou seem to think Russia is putting up its best fight and that the invasion is a real showcase of Russia's abilities. Russia has the second largest air force in the world, the second largest navy and the second largest nuclear stockpile; do you honestly think Russia couldn't level Ukraine in mere days if it wanted?
If Putin could have taken Ukraine he definitely would have. Do you think he went as far as the suburbs of Kiev for a jolly.
There's a reason why NATO invaded Libya but won't confront Russia directly. Russia a monster. What you're seeing in Ukraine is Russia trying to take over land with the minimum possible amount of resources.
The *only* reason why there is still a fight is because of billions of dollars of advanced weaponry being given to Ukraine for free from multiple countries, including the U.S. But even then, Ukraine is continually losing ground.
22 Jun 22
@vivify saidWell, I think it is fair to say that Russia made the common error of overestimating its military capabilities and underestimating its enemy's in the first stage of the war. The situation is similar to the Winter War of 1939-40 though the Soviets took far more serious losses.
You seem to think Russia is putting up its best fight and that the invasion is a real showcase of Russia's abilities. Russia has the second largest air force in the world, the second largest navy and the second largest nuclear stockpile; do you honestly think Russia couldn't level Ukraine in mere days if it wanted?
There's a reason why NATO invaded Libya but won't confro ...[text shortened]... ee from multiple countries, including the U.S. But even then, Ukraine is continually losing ground.
By consolidating their forces in the east, they have concentrated their advantages. And the Ukranians by foolishly committing to defend every inch of territory have left their troops in the Donbass susceptible to encirclement after which they will have little choice but to surrender as even the ultra-nationalist Azoz Regiment was forced to do in Maruipol.
23 Jun 22
1 edit
@vivify saidWe are obviously watching different news feeds. I seem to remember Iraq being cited as the 4th or 5th biggest military in the world just before the 2nd Iraq war. Apparently there’s a massive drop off after the 1st biggest military in the world.
You seem to think Russia is putting up its best fight and that the invasion is a real showcase of Russia's abilities. Russia has the second largest air force in the world, the second largest navy and the second largest nuclear stockpile; do you honestly think Russia couldn't level Ukraine in mere days if it wanted?
There's a reason why NATO invaded Libya but won't confro ...[text shortened]... ee from multiple countries, including the U.S. But even then, Ukraine is continually losing ground.
When you say the 2nd biggest navy I hope your not including that smoke belching diesel Cold War era aircraft carrier that spends more time getting towed than actually under its own steam or that flag ship that sunk in the Black Sea.
Talk like an adult, if Putin could take Ukraine as he originally planned he would of and presented the west with a job done scenario.
As it is he’s relying on his longer artillery reach to grind the Ukrainian resistance in the east down, a strategy that will become more and more difficult once the longer range artillery donated by the west is operational. Maybe then we’ll see a negotiating door open but their will not be one as long as Putin thinks he can steal more territory with his grinding war of attrition.
It’s telling that after all we’ve seen you still think Russia is anything more than a mediocre conventional power using a massive nuclear arsenal to keep that reality at bay.
23 Jun 22
@kevcvs57 saidHow did the Taliban beat the Americans?
It’s not about better your alternative is not any option at all. Why didn’t the Taliban just accept NATO domination? Why didn’t Iraq just bend over and leave the west to run their country and steal their oil?
Why did the Netherlands resist the Nazis? Why did Wallace and Bruce resist the English yoke.
It’s the stink of hypocrisy that makes these threads so galling.
How did the Dutch fight the Nazis?
What's the bloody situation in Iraq now?
Let me make it clear for you: there are many ways to wage war, win battles and influence situations.
Han, Luke, Ben and Chewie... when caught in the tractor beam... did they fight or hide to achieve their goals?
You have to judge each situation accordingly.
And your view point, which is shared by Ukraine and the West is a complete pointless waste of resources and life.
But, where as the West has larger political goals, you don't. You just sit back and watch the kids burn to death.