Global Spread of Democracy Stalled

Originally posted by rwingett
Political democracy is wholly inadequate. A truly democratic system requires economic democracy as well. When the workers get to vote for who their bosses and their CEOs will be, then you'll have a democratic system.

The only company I know of that gets close to applying the democratic ideal in a corporation is W L Gore and Associates out of Delaware (i.e. Goretex).

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/aboutus/culture/index.html

But if the theory is correct, then just as democracies should "out-evolve" feudal monarchies, dictators, etc., so should a democratic corporation be more vigorous than the traditional hierarchical business model.

That small companies are almost always more democratic -- and far nimbler -- than large ones also argues for this. But no one has found a way to create a workable, large-scale, truly democratic company.

Yet.

Originally posted by rwingett
That's a truly bizarre response. How could getting to vote for more things lead to despotism? By that token, why doesn't voting for political office lead to despotism?

Because voting for the leaders of a business will not put the most able in charge. That would destroy free enterprise and entrepenership entirely, leading to the collapse of profit.

Hence, the only outcome is an economic collapse. Nothing ushers in despots like a hopelessly poor population.

Originally posted by spruce112358
The only company I know of that gets close to applying the democratic ideal in a corporation is W L Gore and Associates out of Delaware (i.e. Goretex).

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/aboutus/culture/index.html

But if the theory is correct, then just as democracies should "out-evolve" feudal monarchies, dictators, etc., so should a democratic corporatio ...[text shortened]... ut no one has found a way to create a workable, large-scale, truly democratic company.

Yet.

Small companies are not more democratic. They have no boards. that means nobody gets to vote for leadership. Small companies tend to have the same leaders (owners) for very long periods of time.

The closest thing there is to an economic democracy is a public corporation.

Originally posted by rwingett
Political democracy is wholly inadequate. A truly democratic system requires economic democracy as well. When the workers get to vote for who their bosses and their CEOs will be, then you'll have a democratic system.

We do that now, I vote for my employer by choosing to work for him.

Don't like the CEO?

Don't work there.

Originally posted by rwingett
Political democracy is wholly inadequate. A truly democratic system requires economic democracy as well. When the workers get to vote for who their bosses and their CEOs will be, then you'll have a democratic system.

OMG! You mean mob-ocracy.

I make no secret of my hatred for communism, but this is closely followed by democracy (mob-ocracy). Can you just imagine? Lets take the hypothetical of getting to elect your own boss at work.

Candidate A: “If elected I will increase lunch periods to 2 hours.
Candidate B: “If elected I will increase lunch periods plus cut your work day to 5 hours.
Candidate C: “If elected I will increase lunch periods, decrease work day and double salaries.

Candidate A now says: (you get the point)

Better refresh your resume’…your work at that company is soon to end. 😛

btw: I often use the term "democratic" government but with today's common understanding this mean a 'representative' democracy.

Originally posted by spruce112358
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1121/p01s02-usgn.html

"...Freedom House rates 90 countries in the world as fully free, meaning they are democracies with established liberties. Fifty-eight are partly free, and 45 are not free...."

"What we know as democracy today is really the fusion of two things ... popular sovereignty, or voting; and individual li ...[text shortened]... des when you really need them? 😉)

Is democracy vs. non-democracy the new Cold War?

Freedom and Democracy are two entirely different things.

One does not = the other.

Originally posted by Merk
Because voting for the leaders of a business will not put the most able in charge. That would destroy free enterprise and entrepenership entirely, leading to the collapse of profit.

Hence, the only outcome is an economic collapse. Nothing ushers in despots like a hopelessly poor population.

Does voting for political office put the most able in charge? Obviously not. Do such systems work anyway? Yes, obviously they do. I fail to see why the workers in any industry wouldn't be able to vote for the bosses and have the system work. It would lead to the freer distribution of power as well as wealth without significantly lessening the value of entrepreneurship. Do you think the current system always puts the most able people in charge? You are sadly mistaken if you do.

I dispute your claim that economic collapse is the only outcome of a democratic directed economy. I think if people can be trusted to choose their own political leaders, there's no reason to suspect that they couldn't choose their own economic leaders as well. If you're all in favor of democracy, then let's really open things up. But I suspect that your alleged commitment to democracy is not as deep as you would have us believe.

Originally posted by MacSwain
OMG! You mean mob-ocracy.

I make no secret of my hatred for communism, but this is closely followed by democracy (mob-ocracy). Can you just imagine? Lets take the hypothetical of getting to elect your own boss at work.

Candidate A: “If elected I will increase lunch periods to 2 hours.
Candidate B: “If elected I will increase lunch periods plus ...[text shortened]... c" government but with today's common understanding this mean a 'representative' democracy.

Do you think people are too stupid to see that outcome? Do you really think they're going to vote themselves into oblivion? If they're given all the information relative to the situation, instead of being just told to put in their eight hours and shut up, I think they could arrive at a solution that works for their sustainable, long term interest. I guess my faith in democracy is just greater than your's. What your position reveals is not a hatred for communism, but a hatred for the common man.

Originally posted by spruce112358
The only company I know of that gets close to applying the democratic ideal in a corporation is W L Gore and Associates out of Delaware (i.e. Goretex).

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/aboutus/culture/index.html

But if the theory is correct, then just as democracies should "out-evolve" feudal monarchies, dictators, etc., so should a democratic corporatio ...[text shortened]... ut no one has found a way to create a workable, large-scale, truly democratic company.

Yet.

I was thinking more along the lines of worker owned cooperatives.

Originally posted by rwingett
Do you think people are too stupid to see that outcome? Do you really think they're going to vote themselves into oblivion? If they're given all the information relative to the situation, instead of being just told to put in their eight hours and shut up, I think they could arrive at a solution that works for their sustainable, long term interest. I guess m ...[text shortened]... s. What your position reveals is not a hatred for communism, but a hatred for the common man.

Prove it rwingett, start a company and run it the way you say. If it is a good idea the company will be successful, employees will flock(hehe) to work there. They will love that their voice is herd (haha, or should that be baaabaaaaa)

Originally posted by Wajoma
Prove it rwingett, start a company and run it the way you say. If it is a good idea the company will be successful, employees will flock(hehe) to work there. They will love that their voice is herd (haha, or should that be baaabaaaaa)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives

Read it and weep, Wajoma. It can be done. It has been done. And it works.

Originally posted by rwingett
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives

Read it and weep, Wajoma. It can be done. It has been done. And it works.

There'll be no crying here, it's the free market at work. Pretty meagre list though, you gotta say.

Originally posted by Wajoma
There'll be no crying here, it's the free market at work. Pretty meagre list though, you gotta say.

At no point in this thread did I advocate the dismantling of the supposedly "free market." My point has been the democratization of capitalism. And my list, which is far more expansive than you had presumed, is proof that it can be done.

Originally posted by rwingett
At no point in this thread did I advocate the dismantling of the supposedly "free market." My point has been the democratization of capitalism. And my list, which is far more expansive than you had presumed, is proof that it can be done.

It is not "democratization of capitalism" it is pure capitalism, and it's good to see you coming around and being an advocate for it.

No definition of capitalism excludes joint ownership, just forced ownership.

No doubt, being a man of principle you work for such a company.

Originally posted by rwingett
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives

Read it and weep, Wajoma. It can be done. It has been done. And it works.

I've been to The Cheese Board. They have good pizza. I bought cheese there for a date once.