13 Jul 20
@earl-of-trumps saidYes, that has been the perversion of language that right wingers have tried to play - that trying to limit the damage caused by systemic racism by taking remedial measures that account for it is the only actual "racism" in the US (except for small fringe groups like the KKK).
@no1marauder - "No."
r-word.
Needless to say, it is just more dishonest propaganda meant to preserve the privileged position of whites over minorities esp. blacks.
@no1marauder saidMentioning economic background may be useful on financial aid forms but not
Yes, that has been the perversion of language that right wingers have tried to play - that trying to limit the damage caused by systemic racism by taking remedial measures that account for it is the only actual "racism" in the US (except for small fringe groups like the KKK).
Needless to say, it is just more dishonest propaganda meant to preserve the privileged position of whites over minorities esp. blacks.
on admission forms to gain entrance to an institute of higher education.
We all know what is going on and talking in code words in just another way to
employ race as your real criterion.
oh, well. at least you know our plaint is for real.
You'd make a great lawyer. Do you specialize in loop holes?
13 Jul 20
@earl-of-trumps saidResearch has shown that students of color who are subjected to pervasive discrimination actually have biological and psychological responses which inhibit academic achievement:
Mentioning economic background may be useful on financial aid forms but not
on admission forms to gain entrance to an institute of higher education.
We all know what is going on and talking in code words in just another way to
employ race as your real criterion.
oh, well. at least you know our plaint is for real.
You'd make a great lawyer. Do you specialize in loop holes?
"A recent study from Northwestern University corroborates Agostini’s experience, suggesting that the stress of racial discrimination may partly explain the persistent gaps in academic performance between some nonwhite students, mainly black and Latino youth, and their white counterparts. The team of researchers found that the physiological response to race-based stressors—be it perceived racial prejudice, or the drive to outperform negative stereotypes—leads the body to pump out more stress hormones in adolescents from traditionally marginalized groups. This biological reaction to race-based stress is compounded by the psychological response to discrimination or the coping mechanisms youngsters develop to lessen the distress. What emerges is a picture of black and Latino students whose concentration, motivation, and, ultimately, learning is impaired by unintended and overt racism.
Emma Adam, a professor of human development and social policy at Northwestern and the study’s senior author, said prior research had established racial differences in levels of cortisol—a hormone that increases when the body is stressed—between black and white youth, and linked this to the impact of discrimination. In the current research review, she and her co-authors set out to connect the dots. “We had observed these [dissimilarities] and knew that sleep and stress hormones have strong implications for cognition … we also knew that there was a strong racial gap in academic attainment.”
Two sources of stress encountered by black and Latino students and examined in the report are perceived discrimination—the perception that you will be treated differently or unfairly because of your race—and stereotype threat, the stress of confirming negative expectations about your racial or ethnic group. According to the paper, among this population of students, perceived discrimination from teachers was “related to lower grades, less academic motivation … and less persistence when encountering an academic challenge.” The study also found that the anxiety surrounding the stereotype of academic inferiority undermined students performing academic tasks."
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/10/how-the-stress-of-racism-affects-learning/503567/
The detrimental effects of racism are real and ignoring them just perpetuates their continuing harm. Any college admission program that willfully ignores such effects is being, at best, negligent.
13 Jul 20
@no1marauder saidThe solution, of course, is to greatly lower the bar for admission to college, while greatly increasing the criteria for graduating from it. The top technical university in Europe, ETH Zürich, has no admission procedure at all (beyond a high school degree), but once you're in it takes substantial talent and work to even pass. This method ensures the Donald Trumps of the world are weeded out, while talented people from disadvantaged backgrounds get an opportunity to thrive and develop their talents, all without ever needing to implement any discriminatory admission procedures.
Research has shown that students of color who are subjected to pervasive discrimination actually have biological and psychological responses which inhibit academic achievement:
"A recent study from Northwestern University corroborates Agostini’s experience, suggesting that the stress of racial discrimination may partly explain the persistent gaps in academic performanc ...[text shortened]... arm. Any college admission program that willfully ignores such effects is being, at best, negligent.
@no1marauder
Well, you really have gone a long way to say what affects education for African
Americans, amongst them, racism. And I don't doubt that.
ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, executive functioning, dyscalculia, and a list much
longer than this also affect ability to learn.
Should we entertain giving such people a leg up in admissions to universities?
If you don't agree, you show bias.
Further stated, if a great high school athlete injures himself and his abilities are
severely inhibited, is it a moral duty for the colleges to mitigate that and accept
him on the team?
No. So why is academic pursuit any different? It isn't.
13 Jul 20
@kazetnagorra saidIsn't it a little crowded at ETH Zurich if anybody with a HS diploma can get in?
The solution, of course, is to greatly lower the bar for admission to college, while greatly increasing the criteria for graduating from it. The top technical university in Europe, ETH Zürich, has no admission procedure at all (beyond a high school degree), but once you're in it takes substantial talent and work to even pass. This method ensures the Donald Trumps of the ...[text shortened]... evelop their talents, all without ever needing to implement any discriminatory admission procedures.
Harvard gets 40,000 applications for a class of less than 2000. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/27/harvard-admissions-2024/
13 Jul 20
1 edit
@earl-of-trumps saidFor some bizarre reasons, right wingers think that affirmative action programs admit unqualified minority students.
@no1marauder
Well, you really have gone a long way to say what affects education for African
Americans, amongst them, racism. And I don't doubt that.
ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, executive functioning, dyscalculia, and a list much
longer than this also affect ability to learn.
Should we entertain giving such people a leg up in admissions to universities?
If yo ...[text shortened]... tigate that and accept
him on the team?
No. So why is academic pursuit any different? It isn't.
They don't; they admit qualified minority applicants who might have slightly inferior traditional qualifying criteria. Why they have such is easily explained by the factors already discussed. But that in no way means they are not able to do the work required at the University; most graduate even if at rates a bit lower than non-affirmative action admissions.
Elite college admissions shouldn't simply be a reward for those with a favorable economic, geographical and ethnic background.
As always, you wish to preserve a system that will disadvantage blacks and other minorities. Where AA is banned the effects are predictable:
"A 2013 University of Washington study found that minority students have a harder time getting accepted to public research universities in states that have banned affirmative action. Researchers looked at the effect race had on admissions and saw a 23 percentage point drop in the chance of admission for minority students in states with bans, compared with a 1 percentage point drop in other states, relative to nonminority students."
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/heres-what-happens-when-you-ban-affirmative-action-in-college-admissions/
14 Jul 20
@no1marauder
For some bizarre reasons, right wingers think that affirmative action programs admit unqualified minority students.
They don't; they admit qualified minority applicants who might have slightly inferior traditional qualifying criteria
You've contradicted yourself.
*I'm* qualified to go to Harvard, you're qualified to go to Harvard.
Just not *as* qualified.
You can construct any criteria you want, and replace "inferior traditional qualifying
criteria", but it will always be in your world, it is another way to discriminate.
If you consider "race" as a qualification to gain entrance to Harvard, you're a racist. Period.
Of course, Harvard is private and can do what they want, including discriminate
by skin color, as far as I am concerned.
But state funding schools? Please. what a disgrace. And you wonder where
people get the idea that "skin color COUNTS". uh huh.
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14 Jul 20
@earl-of-trumps said"And you wonder where people get the idea that "skin color COUNTS". uh huh."
@no1marauder
For some bizarre reasons, right wingers think that affirmative action programs admit unqualified minority students.
They don't; they admit qualified minority applicants who might have slightly inferior traditional qualifying criteria
You've contradicted yourself.
*I'm* qualified to go to Harvard, you're qualified to go to Harvard.
Just no ...[text shortened]... lease. what a disgrace. And you wonder where
people get the idea that "skin color COUNTS". uh huh.
- Earl
Maybe it's this song's fault?
Depeche Mode - "Everything Counts"
14 Jul 20
4 edits
@earl-of-trumps saidYes, to you it's a "disgrace" to take account of the fact of systemic racism and its effects on minorities.
@no1marauder
For some bizarre reasons, right wingers think that affirmative action programs admit unqualified minority students.
They don't; they admit qualified minority applicants who might have slightly inferior traditional qualifying criteria
You've contradicted yourself.
*I'm* qualified to go to Harvard, you're qualified to go to Harvard.
Just no ...[text shortened]... lease. what a disgrace. And you wonder where
people get the idea that "skin color COUNTS". uh huh.
I did not "contradict" myself at all; traditional criteria fail to take into account the effects of systemic racism and are thus flawed.
For example, a black student who gets 5 or 10 or even 20 points lower on the SAT than a white student should usually be considered more qualified since he has had to deal with the effects of racism already shown to exist by scientific studies whereas the white student has not. Of course, there are many factors that should be taken into account in an admissions decision besides test scores (which are most correlated with family income).
14 Jul 20
I've used this analogy before:
IF runner A runs 100 meters in 10 seconds and runner B in 10.5 seconds, we'd normally say runner A is "more qualified". But if we look at the actual events and runner B had to jump a hurdle every 10 yards and runner A did not, we'd quickly see that our original conclusion was wrong.
What opponents of AA do is deliberately not look at the "race" in an objective manner.
14 Jul 20
3 edits
@no1marauder I did not "contradict" myself at all; traditional criteria fail to take into account the effects of systemic racism
It is not their JOB to take affects of racism into consideration.
It is their job to get the most able bodied, able minded people they can
Is it wrongful for the same colleges to judge high school athletes without
taking racism to the possible recruits into consideration? NO!
How about on the job, does one take racial discrimination into consideration?
If the company wants the best, most able bodied people, NO. Race is not
a factor, nor should it be.
14 Jul 20
@no1marauder saidIf Runner B has had "blockers" in past races that prevented him from turning
I've used this analogy before:
IF runner A runs 100 meters in 10 seconds and runner B in 10.5 seconds, we'd normally say runner A is "more qualified". But if we look at the actual events and runner B had to jump a hurdle every 10 yards and runner A did not, we'd quickly see that our original conclusion was wrong.
What opponents of AA do is deliberately not look at the "race" in an objective manner.
in his best effort, let him demonstrate what he can do without such constraints.
Savvy coaches won't let this opportunity past them, I am sure.
This translates to applicants that you think have been victims in the past be
given fair and unbiassed entrance exams.
Really very simple.