01 May 08
http://tinyurl.com/6y5jop My understanding is that the Hawaiian royal family got tricked and screwed and that's how Hawaii became a US territory and then a state. Do you think (and under what circumstances should) Hawaii can regain sovereignty and independence? What about the non-Hawaiians who live there? I don't know how strong the sovereignty push is among native Hawaiians, which would be an important part of the equation for me.
01 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by pawnhandlerOn the one hand you seem to be asking what is the right thing to do? Is not the right thing to do to give the native Hawaiians back their country? Then, on the other hand, you seem to be asking if the movement for Hawaiian independence has enough power behind it to realize its goal? I think you should stick to the later question which is does the movement have enough power behind it to become a reality? Politics seldom troubles itself with seeking to do the "right thing" rather, it is simply a power grab for the powers that be.
http://tinyurl.com/6y5jop My understanding is that the Hawaiian royal family got tricked and screwed and that's how Hawaii became a US territory and then a state. Do you think (and under what circumstances should) Hawaii can regain sovereignty and independence? What about the non-Hawaiians who live there? I don't know how strong the sovereignty push is among native Hawaiians, which would be an important part of the equation for me.
What say you?
01 May 08
Originally posted by whodeyWell put. The article mentioned that there are a number of sovereignty groups. To me, it seems like that would hinder rather than help. Unity first, hammer out the details later.
On the one hand you seem to be asking what is the right thing to do? Is not the right thing to do to give the native Hawaiians back their country? Then, on the other hand, you seem to be asking if the movement for Hawaiian independence has enough power behind it to realize its goal? I think you should stick to the later question which is does the movement ...[text shortened]... o the "right thing" rather, it is simply a power grab for the powers that be.
What say you?
01 May 08
Originally posted by pawnhandlerWell, to begin with, I think we should first assess the benefits that the US government enjoys from having Hawaii as a state and then subtract the disadvantages. Just off the top of my head the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Simply put, Hawaii is a tourist money making machine that is the play ground for the powers that be in the US. Therefore, those sovereignty groups either come up with some serious $$$$ to buy a political voice or they better come up with something to threaten the political forces that oppose them. What could these groups possibly have to achieve either of these positions?
Well put. The article mentioned that there are a number of sovereignty groups. To me, it seems like that would hinder rather than help. Unity first, hammer out the details later.
01 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeySurely this sort of calculation shouldn't be done from a US point of view (I know some have difficulties in seeing things from any other point of view), but from a Hawaiian point of view.
Well, to begin with, I think we should first assess the benefits that the US government enjoys from having Hawaii as a state and then subtract the disadvantages. Just off the top of my head the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Simply put, Hawaii is a tourist money making machine that is the play ground for the powers that be in the US. Therefore, ...[text shortened]... s that oppose them. What could these groups possibly have to achieve either of these positions?
What are the benefits Hawaii enjoys from being a state of the US, and what are the disadvantages.
It is for Hawaii to decide if it wants out - not for the US to decide if it wants to keep Hawaii.
01 May 08
Originally posted by Redmikehas anyone ever tried seceding from the union? let me see.... oh yeah! don't think anyone's gonna try that for a while longer.
Surely this sort of calculation shouldn't be done from a US point of view (a know some have difficulties in seeing things from any other point of view), but from a Hawaiian point of view.
What are the benefits Hawaii enjoys from being a state of the US, and what are the disadvantages.
It is for Hawaii to decide if it wants out - not for the US to decide if it wants to keep Hawaii.
01 May 08
3 edits
Originally posted by RedmikeYou bring up a good point, however, power dictates the ability to effect change and not a particular point of view that is outgunned in terms of lack of power to effect change. That is why I focused on the veiwpoint of the federal government.
Surely this sort of calculation shouldn't be done from a US point of view (I know some have difficulties in seeing things from any other point of view), but from a Hawaiian point of view.
What are the benefits Hawaii enjoys from being a state of the US, and what are the disadvantages.
It is for Hawaii to decide if it wants out - not for the US to decide if it wants to keep Hawaii.
If I recall the South seceded from the Union a while back but were not powerful enough to do so.
01 May 08
Originally posted by pawnhandlerWe settled this in the 1800's. Hawaii is American.
http://tinyurl.com/6y5jop My understanding is that the Hawaiian royal family got tricked and screwed and that's how Hawaii became a US territory and then a state. Do you think (and under what circumstances should) Hawaii can regain sovereignty and independence? What about the non-Hawaiians who live there? I don't know how strong the sovereignty push is among native Hawaiians, which would be an important part of the equation for me.
However, in my opinion, states should be allowed to peacefully request to leave the Union.
01 May 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungAre you suggesting that the federal government has to much sway and power over states in the Union? I would have to agree, but we are just sitting around saying, "Would'nt it be nice?" Maybe you should play that tune by the Beach Boys while we discuss this?
We settled this in the 1800's. Hawaii is American.
However, in my opinion, states should be allowed to peacefully request to leave the Union.
01 May 08
Originally posted by pawnhandlerSubstitute "Confederate States of America" for "Hawaii" and I think you'll see your way through your conundrum.
http://tinyurl.com/6y5jop My understanding is that the Hawaiian royal family got tricked and screwed and that's how Hawaii became a US territory and then a state. Do you think (and under what circumstances should) Hawaii can regain sovereignty and independence? What about the non-Hawaiians who live there? I don't know how strong the sovereignty push is among native Hawaiians, which would be an important part of the equation for me.
02 May 08
Originally posted by whodeyI do put in quite a bit of time studying and analyzing things for political reasons. I put effort into persuading people towards my point of view. I could be far more active, but I wouldn't quite say I'm just wishing.
Are you suggesting that the federal government has to much sway and power over states in the Union? I would have to agree, but we are just sitting around saying, "Would'nt it be nice?" Maybe you should play that tune by the Beach Boys while we discuss this?
02 May 08
1 edit
I think another good quesiton to consider is, who should we consider to be Hawaiin if it all came down to a vote? Is it the native people of the island only or the residents who have come from the mainland who have made it their home? Should only the native people be allowed to vote for independance?
02 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYou still are missing my point. You may have a certain degree of power by having the ability to sway people to your way of thinking. In fact, the richer you become and more famous you become the greater your sway. Just think, if you were a Hollywood star you could go to Congress and give Congressional testimony on the affair. LOL. The sad part is that the powers that be have much more sway than you. They have spent years upon years in terms of achieving and consolodating their power over us and once such power is achieved it will not be surrendered without a fight.
I do put in quite a bit of time studying and analyzing things for political reasons. I put effort into persuading people towards my point of view. I could be far more active, but I wouldn't quite say I'm just wishing.