14 Jul 23
One of the reasons for prison, in addition to punishment and rehabilitation, is as a deterrent for crime.
The U.S. has very high crime rates, as opposed to Singapore, which has one of the world's lowest crime rates. Singapore is also infamous for their strict punishment of crime:
https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1915352_1915354_1915337,00.html
One famous incident is from 1994 when an American was caught defacing property and random acts of vandalism. His punishment was to be canned. Due to the U.S. government getting involved at the request of his parents, his punishment was reduced to six strikes from a cane, which would've been much higher otherwise.
Obviously we don't want draconian punishments for crime, nor do we want petty crimes punished in extreme ways. But Singapore's low crime does show that people are genuinely afraid of prison (though it's not just that, law enforcement is also very strict).
If prison should also act as a deterrent for crime, how harsh should punishments be? How do we find a balance between punishment and human rights?
Yes, I know that reasons for crime also include economic factors, social inequities, etc.
But as far as I can tell, the thought of prison or jail time in the U.S. doesn't really frighten most criminals, especially if only a few months or if they're well-connected inside (such as by being prison gang leaders).
If prison is to be used as a deterrent, this can't be the case.
@vivify saidI can remember my older brothers talking about the birch in hushed tones and I think short sharp physical punishments might work for non hardened criminal behaviour like petty theft, vandalism etc but if you are going to have harsh prison regimes for career criminals it gets complicated, you would need graded prisons to a larger extent than now, ( UK ) otherwise robbers would be under the same regime as rapists and murderers which seems a bit unfair. Either the robbers would be too harshly punished or the really nasty criminals would not be punished harshly enough
Yes, I know that reasons for crime also include economic factors, social inequities, etc.
But as far as I can tell, the thought of prison or jail time in the U.S. doesn't really frighten most criminals, especially if only a few months or if they're well-connected inside (such as by being prison gang leaders).
If prison is to be used as a deterrent, this can't be the case.
@kevcvs57 saidhttps://irblaw.com.sg/learning-centre/armed-robberies-in-singapore/#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20the%20sentence%20for,12)%20strokes%20of%20the%20cane.
I can remember my older brothers talking about the birch in hushed tones and I think short sharp physical punishments might work for non hardened criminal behaviour like petty theft, vandalism etc but if you are going to have harsh prison regimes for career criminals it gets complicated, you would need graded prisons to a larger extent than now, ( UK ) otherwise robbers woul ...[text shortened]... ers would be too harshly punished or the really nasty criminals would not be punished harshly enough
The punishment for robbery in Singapore can be up to 14 years and twelve strikes with a cane.
What would you suggest the harshest possible punishment (within moral grounds) should be for an average, run-of-the-mill robbery?
And any thoughts whether "hard labor" should be reintroduced into U.S. prisons?
14 Jul 23
@vivify saidI could pretend to care about US prisons but I don’t.
https://irblaw.com.sg/learning-centre/armed-robberies-in-singapore/#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20the%20sentence%20for,12)%20strokes%20of%20the%20cane.
The punishment for robbery in Singapore can be up to 14 years and twelve strikes with a cane.
What would you suggest the harshest possible punishment (within moral grounds) should be for an average, run-of-the-mill robbery?
And any thoughts whether "hard labor" should be reintroduced into U.S. prisons?
My point is there can be no natural justice in a system that inflicts the same regime on a robber as it does a child rapist or a murderer.
So no matter how hard you punish robbers you will have escalate that regime for the aforementioned transgressions.
The thread question is too vague to give a direct answer.
Criminals are not a lumpen masse.
Non violent robbers should not be subject to the same regime as robbers who employ violence.
This question is not geographically dependent. Or do you think it is?
14 Jul 23
@kevcvs57 saidCrap, I keep forgetting you're not American. And as a Brit, that's possibly the single biggest insult I can give you.
I could pretend to care about US prisons but I don’t.
Criminals are not a lumpen masse.
Non violent robbers should not be subject to the same regime as robbers who employ violence.
This question is not geographically dependent. Or do you think it is?
True. This can really only be answered on a case by case basis.
14 Jul 23
@vivify saidLol no I’ve been accused of a lot worse, I was once asked if I was French 😱
Crap, I keep forgetting you're not American. And as a Brit, that's possibly the single biggest insult I can give you.
Criminals are not a lumpen masse.
Non violent robbers should not be subject to the same regime as robbers who employ violence.
This question is not geographically dependent. Or do you think it is?
True. This can really only be answered on a case by case basis.
Yeah it’s a difficult one to answer because of the one size fits all approach of most prisons in the UK other than higher and lower security levels.
14 Jul 23
@vivify saidI don’t think Singapore lets poor people in which I’m sure helps.
One of the reasons for prison, in addition to punishment and rehabilitation, is as a deterrent for crime.
The U.S. has very high crime rates, as opposed to Singapore, which has one of the world's lowest crime rates. Singapore is also infamous for their strict punishment of crime:
https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1915352_1915354_1915337,0 ...[text shortened]... ime, how harsh should punishments be? How do we find a balance between punishment and human rights?
14 Jul 23
@vivify saidPrison should not be State controlled torture. We have way too many laws and too difficult an economy for those who don’t already have money which is why our prisons are overflowing.
One of the reasons for prison, in addition to punishment and rehabilitation, is as a deterrent for crime.
The U.S. has very high crime rates, as opposed to Singapore, which has one of the world's lowest crime rates. Singapore is also infamous for their strict punishment of crime:
https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1915352_1915354_1915337,0 ...[text shortened]... ime, how harsh should punishments be? How do we find a balance between punishment and human rights?
14 Jul 23
@vivify saidThey’re scared of long prison terms and the death penalty certainly. Those punishments/consequences get results. That’s how the US government dismantled Cosa Nostra.
Yes, I know that reasons for crime also include economic factors, social inequities, etc.
But as far as I can tell, the thought of prison or jail time in the U.S. doesn't really frighten most criminals, especially if only a few months or if they're well-connected inside (such as by being prison gang leaders).
If prison is to be used as a deterrent, this can't be the case.
14 Jul 23
@athousandyoung saidWell, those with a lot to lose like a rich and powerful mob boss would be afraid of prison more than an average person.
They’re scared of long prison terms and the death penalty certainly. Those punishments/consequences get results. That’s how the US government dismantled Cosa Nostra.
Given the constant shootings and mass shootings, many of which are done in broad daylight, it doesn't seem the average criminal actual cares about being locked up.
14 Jul 23
2 edits
@vivify saidNah rich and powerful criminals can remain rich and powerful in prison. Being poor and at the bottom of the pecking order is prison SUCKS.
Well, those with a lot to lose like a rich and powerful mob boss would be afraid of prison more than an average person.
Given the constant shootings and mass shootings, many of which are done in broad daylight, it doesn't seem the average criminal actual cares about being locked up.
The psychology of these “average criminals” is more complex than simple fear of prison.
Many of them, especially Blacks, feel that the corrupt justice system will put them in prison or have a cop shoot them whether they commit crimes or not. So why not commit the crimes?
If a common street hood allows himself to be disrespected and his reputation damaged without violent retaliation, street criminal culture will punish him and he is in fear of that too. Going to prison is one thing; being raped and mutilated and your family killed is something else.
Criminals also often believe they can get away with their crimes if they are smart.
And sometimes they are balancing a life of poverty and misery but no prison with a life as a millionaire with luxuries and hot women but risk of prison.
Then there are guys like Lil Nas X who are gay but not weak and fear prison less because they can have a great sex life inside.
14 Jul 23
@athousandyoung saidI understand those kind of crimes but it doesn't explain the senseless killings like the Parkland shooter, the Chicago parade shooter, Asian spa shooter, the Buffalo Target shooter, etc.
If a common street hood allows himself to be disrespected and his reputation damaged without violent retaliation, street criminal culture will punish him and he is in fear of that too. Going to prison is one thing; being raped and mutilated and your family killed is something else.
So many crimes are committed for no other reason other than because the perpetrator can. Such people seem to have no fear of prison.