07 May 04
Originally posted by chancremechanicThat's not good enough. Maltreatment of prisoners has happened before and will happen again. But when it does happen, it should be addressed. You write about Al Jazeera's responsibility, but it is the United States' and Britain's responsibility to address their own violations of human rights.
[b]Since the beginning of time when Man has gone to war, prisoners have been mistreated by varying degrees of abuse...the Romans did it, the Carthaginians, Egyptians, Huns, Goths....did it; every nation that has gone to war has had some of their soldires act unaccordingly....and it will happen again...just a fact of war.
A further thought - it is ludicrous to reference Al Jazeera when talking about media responsibility without mentioning the western media, who have a far more effective hegemony; with their greater power comes greater responsibility.
07 May 04
Originally posted by CaptainDangerousAnd hopefully Piers Morgan's responsibility (Daily Mirror editor) will land him in jail. Not just for forging photographs and stories of abuse situations, but for all his past misdemeanors.
That's not good enough. Maltreatment of prisoners has happened before and will happen again. But when it does happen, it should be addressed. You write about Al Jazeera's responsibility, but it is the United States' and Britain's responsibility to address their own violations of human rights.
A further thought - it is ludicrous to reference A ...[text shortened]... , who have a far more effective hegemony; with their greater power comes greater responsibility.
08 May 04
Originally posted by steerpikeApology accepted...I agree with the rest of your post...and the US will resolve it if the world in general and the Arab world in particular will stop screaming bloody murder long enough for the US to do something about it...
Sorry, a bit of a low blow. Have to fight the tendency to be a smart-arse. 😳
Interesting that the prison bullies are not combat troops - I think these look to be a lower form of soldier - if I can be permitted to criticise any of your troops.
I am more interested in how you resolve it. It was Americans who uncovered it and Americans who reported it ...[text shortened]... to have the decency to sort out responsibility. So far, I have no reason to doubt your resolve.
08 May 04
Originally posted by shavixmirThe answer to both of your questions is to have enough Red Cross personnel, and in the case of Iraqi prisoners, the Red Crescent...maybe?...better yet, train soldiers in the proper handling of prisoners...hold commanding officers accountable for the actions of their people...
Yes.
But, you would agree then, that having the red cross present at prisoner locations would diminish the chances of torture, many fold?
So, is the answer:
a: There's not enough red cross people, so that isn't the solution or
b: Make sure there are enough red cross people, so that it becomes the solution?
08 May 04
1 edit
Originally posted by CaptainDangerousHow is it ludicrous to use Al-Jazeera's irresponsibility in reporting the truth when that is what all the Iraqis and Arabs are watching? 🙄...speaking of western media, who have a far more effective "hegemony"...wasn't it the US who reported the abuse in the first place?...therfore, your argument is naught.....and don't you think it was with great responsibility that an American media (CBS) reported it in the first place?...what's your point? 🙄
That's not good enough. Maltreatment of prisoners has happened before and will happen again. But when it does happen, it should be addressed. You write about Al Jazeera's responsibility, but it is the United States' and Britain ...[text shortened]... e hegemony; with their greater power comes greater responsibility.
08 May 04
Originally posted by chancremechanicI beg to disagree. You don't want the army checking itself. In fact, you shouldn't want any organisation, business or person checking itself. That is absolute power.
The answer to both of your questions is to have enough Red Cross personnel, and in the case of Iraqi prisoners, the Red Crescent...maybe?...better yet, train soldiers in the proper handling of prisoners...hold commanding officers accountable for the actions of their people...
Have a wee read here: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Trias%20politica
It's about the trias politica and why you divide power and responsibility over various branches.
The same goes for prisons. To guarantee the safety of prisoners you need to have a group of people, unattached to the guards, the army, etc. checking.
These people also have to be swapped around frequently, so that they don't become too 'at home' within a single situation.
08 May 04
Believe in common sense.
Soliders are young, imature and don't have college degrees in the humanities. Instead they are trained to kill Torture happens in all wars, and the Americans and British are not exempt Plenty of reported cases by the Yanks Vietnam and their "advisors" in Central and South America.
The Brits ran concentration camps in Kenya that were every bit as bad as those of the Nazis, and were found guilty of torture in Northern Ireland.
The Yanks "coercion" techniques in camp X-ray have even been criticised by their allies the Brits
The Red Cross has visited prisoners in Iraq and reported that the abuse was widspread.
There are now 4 soldiers from QLR who have contacted the Mirror
Go figure!!
The only thing I can't believe is the pathetic scrubber who calls herself an editor at the Sun, and who thought the photos were funny.
08 May 04
Originally posted by John GTake it you condone your troops breaking the rules of war and Geneva convention?
Believe in common sense.
Soliders are young, imature and don't have college degrees in the humanities. Instead they are trained to kill Torture happens in all wars, and the Americans and British are not exempt Plenty of reported cases by the Yanks Vietnam and their "advisors" in Central and South America.
The Brits ran concentration camps in Kenya ...[text shortened]... pathetic scrubber who calls herself an editor at the Sun, and who thought the photos were funny.
If so, how would your trops be any different from the SS troops at Oradour?
08 May 04
That's "our" troops mate (I'm a kiwi too). No I don't condone them breaking the rules of war, I just think its something you you have to expect, and a good reason not to engage war it at all.
I want our troops brought home. Even though they are suppposed to be just "rebuildng" Iraq.
By the way, whats the level of abuse in NZ jails? ;-)
08 May 04
Originally posted by chancremechanicWho mentioned their "irresponsibility in reporting the truth"? What is this revisionism!!? You said they had a responsibility to put things in perspective. Your original mail said that they should emphasise that the abuses of prisoners were isolated incidents. It was nothing to do with dishonesty, so I don't know where that allusion is coming from...
[b]How is it ludicrous to use Al-Jazeera's irresponsibility in reporting the truth when that is what all the Iraqis and Arabs are watching?
I don't think they have any such responsibility. They are entitled to raise awareness of any evidence that such abuses may be taking place. They are entitled to flag concerns as to the maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners. Why should they help to sweep this under the rug??
And as regards the western media... In my opinion, to a large degree the western media have not done a good job of reporting the Iraqi situation. The deaths of Iraqis are not as important as the deaths of western forces as far as my television is concerned, but then I don't have Al Jazeera on my TV. Wowee, they reported some abuse of Iraqi prisoners. Let's all rejoice in their impartiality....
09 May 04
1 edit
Originally posted by John GYes - expecting it is one thing. accepting another. Yet these examples are not beatings or refusing to take prisoners in the heat of battle in a mix of fear, anger and stress most of us have never experienced. They are cold blooded abuse of state power which put the perputrators in the same moral place as the Soviet Gulag guards and Saddam's old torturers.
That's "our" troops mate (I'm a kiwi too). No I don't condone them breaking the rules of war, I just think its something you you have to expect, and a good reason not to engage war it at all.
I want our troops brought home. Even t ...[text shortened]... " Iraq.
By the way, whats the level of abuse in NZ jails? ;-)
Perhaps now is a good time to contact your MP and tell them your views on getting our troops out of there? I think they are due out in September - as our country's voice was ignored when Iraq was invaded, we have no moral reponsibility to stay. Let the sowers reap.
Got to change my profile - I thought I might become Shrek?