My poor Jerusalem...

@shavixmir said
Oh they’re far from blessed.

Their whole society is ripping itself in two. Just see how long each parliament lasts. They can’t work together.
On one hand there’s a large secular group and on the other, large, fanatically extreme religious groups.
If it wasn’t for the Arab threat, they’d be knifing each on every street corner.

What do you think their treatment of th ...[text shortened]... l’s behaviour becomes ever more removed from historical context.

It never was going to end well.

https://nos.nl/collectie/13864/artikel/2380761-waarom-influencers-zich-massaal-mengen-in-discussie-over-palestijns-israelisch-conflict

It’s in Dutch.
It’s basically backing up my statement that the youth (and so social media) have less historical context to defend Israel’s behaviour in.
And the sign of the times as that the condemnation of Israel’s behaviour is only going to grow.

Personally:
Much like what happened to South Africa in the 70’s and 80’s (although I can’t for the life of me comprehend why the older generation thought their apartheid was acceptable).
There you had world leaders like the bitch from no. 10 and Raygun supporting the South African regime, but the times had changed.

Now you see that the world leaders’ still supporting “Israel’s right to defend itself” becoming ever more contrasted with the general population calling for moderation and proportionality. And the youth just saying: “Stop it.”

Suddenly, just because great grandmas were persecuted, it’s no longer an excuse to do what you want.

I’m not in favour of losing historic perspective. Nor for clinging to it as a means of justification. And I certainly have little time for whining youths and influencers.
But it is good to see the perspective of what Israel is doing without the guilt-ridden emphasis or the Zionist lobby having much influence on it.

To put it biblical (and that’s 3.000 years of historic context): nobody reads David vs Goliath and supports the giant. Israel is now Goliath and the Palestinian kids are David.

And we all know the new David will become the new monster through violence, oppression, fear and hate.

Ain’t life great

@shavixmir said
https://nos.nl/collectie/13864/artikel/2380761-waarom-influencers-zich-massaal-mengen-in-discussie-over-palestijns-israelisch-conflict

It’s in Dutch.
It’s basically backing up my statement that the youth (and so social media) have less historical context to defend Israel’s behaviour in.
And the sign of the times as that the condemnation of Israel’s behaviour is only ...[text shortened]... w David will become the new monster through violence, oppression, fear and hate.

Ain’t life great

I accept that the Jews carried out acts of terrorism, and illegally seized land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians. But still you are not getting into the root cause of the problems. You are speaking of effects and ignoring the causes.

Here it is again:
- Way back in 1850 the Jews started going back to Palestine and buying up property.
- There was very little animosity then because the locals did not see it as a threat.
- As more and more land got bought and more and more Jews arrived the Palestinians became worried and the animosity started, leading to terrorists gangs [which you mentioned] operating. Both sides are guilty of this.
- The British who governed Palestine tried to stop the bloodshed but they failed.
- Together with the UN the British partitioned in the land in 1947 and left in 1948.

This is a watershed point in the history of the conflict. Here now is the first chance for a 2 state solution without an Imperial power around. The Jews accepted and were willing live in peace with those options. The Palestinians did not. The Jews were willing to share the land. The Palestinians wanted no sharing and wanted all Jews dead or out.

The hostile party at that point was the Palestinians, not the Jews. In the ensuing War of Independence the Jews were on the defense, while the Palestinians with help from Arab neighbours were on the attack. This has not changed at all and on many occasions Palestinians have stated or implied that all they want is for the Jews to be expelled totally our of Palestine.

So there is NO PEACE if the Jews exist in Palestine

@rajk999 said
I accept that the Jews carried out acts of terrorism, and illegally seized land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians. But still you are not getting into the root cause of the problems. You are speaking of effects and ignoring the causes.

Here it is again:
- Way back in 1850 the Jews started going back to Palestine and buying up property.
- There was very little animo ...[text shortened]... be expelled totally our of Palestine.

So there is NO PEACE if the Jews exist in Palestine

Rajk999: The Palestinians wanted no sharing and wanted all Jews dead or out.

This is a falsehood. What the Palestinians wanted was for the majority of the People in Palestine to decide its political fate in accordance with the accepted principles of self-determination.

Your demonization of Palestinians is just Zionist propaganda to excuse the crimes committed against them.

Rajk: Together with the UN the British partitioned in the land in 1947

This is not true as I already pointed out.

Rajk: on many occasions Palestinians have stated or implied that all they want is for the Jews to be expelled totally our of Palestine.

Again this is simply a falsehood. The official Palestinian position has been acceptance of a two State solution for decades.

@no1marauder said
Rajk999: The Palestinians wanted no sharing and wanted all Jews dead or out.

This is a falsehood. What the Palestinians wanted was for the majority of the People in Palestine to decide its political fate in accordance with the accepted principles of self-determination.

Your demonization of Palestinians is just Zionist propaganda to excuse the crimes committed agains ...[text shortened]... alsehood. The official Palestinian position has been acceptance of a two State solution for decades.

Here is what Wiki says:

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan as "the indispensable minimum,", glad to gain international recognition but sorry that they did not receive more. The representatives of the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab League firmly opposed the UN action and rejected its authority in the matter, arguing that the partition plan was unfair to the Arabs because of the population balance at that time. [b]The Arabs rejected the partition, not because it was supposedly unfair, but because their leaders rejected any form of partition.

Not interested in the other petty small talk. This is the point :

Did the Palestinians accept the 2 state solution proposed by the British in 1947 ?

Lets hear your answer. Leave out the small talk and opinions.

@rajk999 said
Here is what Wiki says:

The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan as "the indispensable minimum,", glad to gain international recognition but sorry that they did not receive more. The representatives of the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab League firmly opposed the UN action and rejected its authority in the matter, arguing that the partition plan was unfair to th ...[text shortened]... oposed by the British in 1947 ?

Lets hear your answer. Leave out the small talk and opinions.

No, they didn't. Nor should they have IMO.

But that is not the same as saying the Palestinian leadership "wanted all Jews dead or out".

@no1marauder said
No, they didn't. Nor should they have IMO.

But that is not the same as saying the Palestinian leadership "wanted all Jews dead or out".

No. Palstinians did not accept it. Leave out the opinions, both yours and mine. Im dealing with facts.

Did the Jews accept the partition I will answer : YES

Did the British have the authority to propose a 2 state solution and partition the land of Palestine in 1947?

I say YES. Palestine did not belong to the Palestinians but was a British Overseas Territory under the control of the British Imperialist power at that time. Together with the UN they did the partition.

You say NO. I get that. Please explain in simple language why not, and who instead should partition the land, if at all.

@rajk999 said
No. Palstinians did not accept it. Leave out the opinions, both yours and mine. Im dealing with facts.

Did the Jews accept the partition I will answer : YES

Did the British have the authority to propose a 2 state solution and partition the land of Palestine in 1947?

I say YES. Palestine did not belong to the Palestinians but was a British Ov ...[text shortened]... t. Please explain in simple language why not, and who instead should partition the land, if at all.

You continue to be wrong; the British did not implement the Partition Plan because of the opposition of the People in Palestine. They simply left knowing that the Zionists would declare a State and militarily occupy as much of Palestine as they were able to and drive out as many Arabs as they could.

The only People with the authority to partition the territory, if they so decided, were the ones in Palestine according to the accepted international law principle of self-determination.

Dr. Walid Khalidi put it well:

""The native people of Palestine, like the native people of every other country in the Arab world, Asia, Africa and Europe, refused to divide the land with a settler community."

https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story448.html

@rajk999 said
No. Palstinians did not accept it. Leave out the opinions, both yours and mine. Im dealing with facts.

Did the Jews accept the partition I will answer : YES

Did the British have the authority to propose a 2 state solution and partition the land of Palestine in 1947?

I say YES. Palestine did not belong to the Palestinians but was a British Ov ...[text shortened]... t. Please explain in simple language why not, and who instead should partition the land, if at all.

Nor was Palestine a "a British Overseas Territory" in 1947. It was a Mandate which was:

" The relevant provisions of the League’s Covenant (Article 22) referred to these territories as “certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire [which] have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative assistance and advice by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. "

https://www.un.org/unispal/history2/origins-and-evolution-of-the-palestine-problem/part-ii-1947-1977/

EDIT: Technically by 1947, Palestine was a UN trusteeship, which replaced the League of Nations mandate system in 1946. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Trusteeship_Council

@no1marauder said
Nor was Palestine a "a British Overseas Territory" in 1947. It was a Mandate which was:

" The relevant provisions of the League’s Covenant (Article 22) referred to these territories as “certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire [which] have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized s ...[text shortened]... of Nations mandate system in 1946. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Trusteeship_Council

Are you now accepting the authority of the UN as a matter of convenience ? Palestine was a British Overseas Territory. We are leaving the UN out of this because you did not accept the partition plan approved by the UN and by the British Governor of Palestine at the time.

@no1marauder said
You continue to be wrong; the British did not implement the Partition Plan because of the opposition of the People in Palestine. They simply left knowing that the Zionists would declare a State and militarily occupy as much of Palestine as they were able to and drive out as many Arabs as they could.

The only People with the authority to partition the territory, if they ...[text shortened]... a settler community."

https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story448.html

Dr Who ? Who the hell is that. There is no need for all parties to approve any plan proposed by a governing authority. The Palestinians were a conquered people and under British rule. The plan was approved and the British exited Palestine. It was up to the new government, now the Jews to implement the plan and they did exactly that. The partition plan did not go exactly as planned and the UN somewhere in 1949 accepted Israel a member state of the UN.

WIKI reports : In 1947, these ongoing tensions erupted into civil war following the 29 November 1947 adoption of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which planned to divide Palestine into an Arab state, a Jewish state, and the Special International Regime encompassing the cities of Jerusalem and Bethlehem. On 15 May 1948, the civil war transformed into a conflict between Israel and the Arab states following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine. The invading forces took control of the Arab areas and immediately attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements.

The UN Partition Plan was apporved, implemented and accepted by the UN

@rajk999 said
Are you now accepting the authority of the UN as a matter of convenience ? Palestine was a British Overseas Territory. We are leaving the UN out of this because you did not accept the partition plan approved by the UN and by the British Governor of Palestine at the time.

How many times do I have to tell you that the British did not implement the Partition Plan?

@rajk999 said
Dr Who ? Who the hell is that. There is no need for all parties to approve any plan proposed by a governing authority. The Palestinians were a conquered people and under British rule. The plan was approved and the British exited Palestine. It was up to the new government, now the Jews to implement the plan and they did exactly that. The partition plan did not go exactly as ...[text shortened]... settlements. [/i]

The UN Partition Plan was apporved, implemented and accepted by the UN

No, it was never implemented by the UN. The General Assembly had no power to do so (as I've already shown you the GA Resolution was a non-mandatory recommendation) and the Security Council never acted on it.

The Palestinians were not a "conquered people" and the British did not have authority to do with them what they pleased under the Mandate and later Trusteeship.

@no1marauder said
How many times do I have to tell you that the British did not implement the Partition Plan?

How many times I have to tell you that the British APPROVED the UN Partition Plan ? You must be a retired litigation lawyer to continuously twist what people say... or are you just plain tired. Here is what happened
- The UN and British APPROVED the plan
- The Jews IMPLEMENTED the plan
- The UN ACCEPTED the outcome of the ensuing war
- The Palestinians are now a conquered people.

The End. Fast forward to Now ... they are still fighting for land, when the world has moved forward. The Jews now have one of the most advanced countries in the world. They are second to none. The Palestinians still live in poverty, wasting all their resources on bombs, guns, tunnels, which the Jew counteract with very little effort.

I accept that the Jews did much wrong and needs to fix and make right some of the land issues. But this will never be accomplished with Palestinians and other Arab states calling for the annihilation and destruction, and wiping Israel off the map.

@rajk999 said
How many times I have to tell you that the British APPROVED the UN Partition Plan ? You must be a retired litigation lawyer to continuously twist what people say... or are you just plain tired. Here is what happened
- The UN and British APPROVED the plan
- The Jews IMPLEMENTED the plan
- The UN ACCEPTED the outcome of the ensuing war
- The Palestinians are now a conque ...[text shortened]... s and other Arab states calling for the annihilation and destruction, and wiping Israel off the map.

The Plan was never implemented; not by the British, not by the UN and certainly not by the Jews of the State of Israel (who conquered far more territory than the Plan would have given them).

You keep demonizing the Palestinians and falsely claiming that they and Arabs in general want to kill all the Jews. This, along with your factual inaccuracies and zero knowledge of international law principles (there is no such thing as a "conquered people" anymore and occupiers do not have carte blanche to do whatever they please to the People in territories they illegally occupy) makes your incendiary and bloodthirsty comments little more than Zionist apologia for Crimes against Humanity.

@rajk999 said
How many times I have to tell you that the British APPROVED the UN Partition Plan ? You must be a retired litigation lawyer to continuously twist what people say... or are you just plain tired. Here is what happened
- The UN and British APPROVED the plan
- The Jews IMPLEMENTED the plan
- The UN ACCEPTED the outcome of the ensuing war
- The Palestinians are now a conque ...[text shortened]... s and other Arab states calling for the annihilation and destruction, and wiping Israel off the map.

The idea that the "advanced" Israelis aren't "fighting for land" is almost comic relief given their continual seizure of land to build settlements in the occupied territories, a clear violation of international law:

"The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders."

https://www.un.org/press/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

In response to that SC Resolution, Israel's Representative to the UN stated in defense of illegal settlement building in the West Bank:

" “And we will continue to be a Jewish State proudly reclaiming the land of our forefathers.”