Debates
12 Nov 23
14 Nov 23
@no1marauder saidNone of this really matters.
Ouch! Looks like Kev and others are going to have to eat some major crow if this Washington Post article is accurate: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukrainian-military-officer-coordinated-nord-stream-pipeline-attack/ar-AA1jLI1c?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=f51d47781f474397bde1292169aa2ef5&ei=25
Highlights:
"A senior Ukrainian military officer with deep ties to the country’ ...[text shortened]... team, as well as the use of a rented boat, diving equipment and fake identities, remained the same."
The war isn't about Ukraine. It's about stopping Russia from increasing it's territory and military reach.
Had Russia invaded Belarus Lukashenko would be hailed as a hero and getting standing ovations by the U.N. Prior to the war, Zelensky was hated as a corrupt politician leading a corrupt government. The U.S. isn't helping Ukraine because they deserve it, it's entirely a self-serving proxy war.
Back when Russia had 100,000 troops on Ukraine's border I started a thread titled "Why should the U.S. help Ukraine"? I caught a lot of flack by the lefties here for saying the U.S. should stay out and softened my position trying to be a good lefty. I wish I hadn't. The U.S. should've let Europe handle Russia if they truly believed Putin was such a threat.
I'm so sick of the U.S. engaging in war. How much was spent on Ukraine that could've been spent on forgiving student debt?
14 Nov 23
@vivify saidIt matters to the EU.
None of this really matters.
The war isn't about Ukraine. It's about stopping Russia from increasing it's territory and military reach.
Had Russia invaded Belarus Lukashenko would be hailed as a hero and getting standing ovations by the U.N. Prior to the war, Zelensky was hated as a corrupt politician leading a corrupt government. The U.S. isn't helping Ukraine beca ...[text shortened]... engaging in war. How much was spent on Ukraine that could've been spent on forgiving student debt?
You really think EU citizens care more supporting a dubious regime against the Russians, than the price of gas?
Nobody likes Putin. But if the cracker we’re sending buckets full of weaponry to is blowing up our supplies of whatever… yeah… that’s a bit of an issue.
@shavixmir saidThis isn't about supporting Ukraine and never was. It's about fear of Russia gaining strongholds in Europe.
It matters to the EU.
You really think EU citizens care more supporting a dubious regime against the Russians, than the price of gas?
Nobody likes Putin. But if the cracker we’re sending buckets full of weaponry to is blowing up our supplies of whatever… yeah… that’s a bit of an issue.
I've noticed many discussions about Ukraine come down to arguing how worthy they are to receive foreign assistance. That's the part that doesn't matter. The media made it seem like it was about saving human lives and "we stand with Ukraine" but that's just how the actual goal of restraining Russia is being sold.
Of course what Ukraine did matters to Europe. But the real issue is how much does Europe really care about stopping Putin's invasion. Definitely not more than having gas.
14 Nov 23
@vivify saidMost Europeans oppose Putin’s war on Ukraine.
This isn't about supporting Ukraine and never was. It's about fear of Russia gaining strongholds in Europe, not protecting Ukraine.
I've noticed many discussions about Ukraine come down to arguing how worthy they are to receive foreign assistance. That's the part that doesn't matter. The media made it seem like it was about saving human lives and "we stand with Ukraine ...[text shortened]... much does Europe really care about stopping Putin's invasion. Definitely not more than having gas.
But most comprehend that Putin isn’t going on an invasion tantrum (logistically just not viable for the Russians to achieve).
14 Nov 23
@shavixmir saidI agree that Putin isn't just invading for the hell of it,
Most Europeans oppose Putin’s war on Ukraine.
But most comprehend that Putin isn’t going on an invasion tantrum (logistically just not viable for the Russians to achieve).
14 Nov 23
4 edits
@vivify saidWe know the US was never interested in saving Ives ( lol who was ever that stupid ) or it wouldn’t be helping Israel to slaughter untold numbers of babies and children.
This isn't about supporting Ukraine and never was. It's about fear of Russia gaining strongholds in Europe.
I've noticed many discussions about Ukraine come down to arguing how worthy they are to receive foreign assistance. That's the part that doesn't matter. The media made it seem like it was about saving human lives and "we stand with Ukraine" but that's just how the ...[text shortened]... much does Europe really care about stopping Putin's invasion. Definitely not more than having gas.
It’s always been strategic, how far can the Russo China alliance be allowed to advance west and cut the US out of Europe
From Europes perspective it’s an existential threat and your right Europe cannot and should not rely on a very flaky US with its own civil war to worry about.
Europe needs to massively rearm and balloon it’s nuclear and conventional forces and come to some kind of terms with China regarding the eastern pacific which is irrelevant to Europe and as much Chinas back yard as the western pacific is for the US
The demise of nato will allow / compel Europe to focus on what is important to it and not be dragged into Washington’s dreams of global domination and constant wars
I was a big fan of nato but from what I see of American society and body politic today the basic premise of nato is rapidly evaporating.
Another bonus is that we could tell Israel’s right wing to go hump itself and work more constructively with our Arab ad Israeli neighbours
@kevcvs57 saidIf anything, Russia's bumbling military performance in Ukraine shows it is little threat to the rest of Europe. The standing armies of European NATO are easily a match for her military and the UK and French nuclear forces are sufficient to devastate her cities.
We know the US was never interested in saving Ives ( lol who was ever that stupid ) or it wouldn’t be helping Israel to slaughter untold numbers of babies and children.
It’s always been strategic, how far can the Russo China alliance be allowed to advance west and cut the US out of Europe
From Europes perspective it’s an existential threat and your right Europe cannot an ...[text shortened]... ael’s right wing to go hump itself and work more constructively with our Arab ad Israeli neighbours
Hey, if Europe wants to repeat the US' mistake of wasting excess money on its military to the detriment of its People's social welfare that's their call but it would be a foolish one empowering right wing and even fascist movements in their countries.
14 Nov 23
@vivify saidThe truth matters a little, doesn't it?
None of this really matters.
The war isn't about Ukraine. It's about stopping Russia from increasing it's territory and military reach.
Had Russia invaded Belarus Lukashenko would be hailed as a hero and getting standing ovations by the U.N. Prior to the war, Zelensky was hated as a corrupt politician leading a corrupt government. The U.S. isn't helping Ukraine beca ...[text shortened]... engaging in war. How much was spent on Ukraine that could've been spent on forgiving student debt?
14 Nov 23
@no1marauder saidWell the problem is that in order to deter a regime that does not have concern itself with domestic opinion or democratic restraints you have present an overwhelming deterrent force, it’s expensive but a it could also be a massive boost to the manufacturing side of the economy.
If anything, Russia's bumbling military performance in Ukraine shows it is little threat to the rest of Europe. The standing armies of European NATO are easily a match for her military and the UK and French nuclear forces are sufficient to devastate her cities.
Hey, if Europe wants to repeat the US' mistake of wasting excess money on its military to the detriment of it ...[text shortened]... l but it would be a foolish one empowering right wing and even fascist movements in their countries.
At the moment Europe is struggling to give Ukraine what it needs to hold the line on its eastern flank so that at least needs to be remedied.
Russia does not go for massive invasions it just keeps nibbling away at weaker neighbours borders. Europe has to ensure it contains no weak borders.
15 Nov 23
@kevcvs57 saidIn February 2022, Biden promised that if Russia invades Ukraine, that the Nord Stream pipeline will no longer exist.
Well the problem is that in order to deter a regime that does not have concern itself with domestic opinion or democratic restraints you have present an overwhelming deterrent force, it’s expensive but a it could also be a massive boost to the manufacturing side of the economy.
At the moment Europe is struggling to give Ukraine what it needs to hold the line on its eastern ...[text shortened]... keeps nibbling away at weaker neighbours borders. Europe has to ensure it contains no weak borders.
In September 2022, after the pipeline was blown up, US "news" agencies reported that Russia blew up their own pipeline.
Putin, quite reasonably ask why they'd blow it up when they could just turn off the valve.
And I predict that half the people here are not even slightly suspicious that their "news" is lying to them.
It looks to me like the Washington Post is laundering false information meant to serve as version 2.0 of the story that someone other than the US blew up the pipeline.
15 Nov 23
@techsouth saidSo a news paper that reports a Whitehouse statement or claim is guilty of the same lie if it turns out the whitehouse was lying or just wrong.
In February 2022, Biden promised that if Russia invades Ukraine, that the Nord Stream pipeline will no longer exist.
In September 2022, after the pipeline was blown up, US "news" agencies reported that Russia blew up their own pipeline.
Putin, quite reasonably ask why they'd blow it up when they could just turn off the valve.
And I predict that half the people here ...[text shortened]... tion meant to serve as version 2.0 of the story that someone other than the US blew up the pipeline.
The possible logic of Russian damaging ( blown up is hyperbole ) its own UNUSED pipelines would be to give it cover when it started destroying Norwegian pipelines in order to starve western Europe of fuel.
It’s only a theory but it does contain at least as much internal logic than the US or Ukraine blowing up a pipeline that the Russians had no more use for
That being said Ukraine is definitely the most likely candidate now
15 Nov 23
@kevcvs57 saidI had it backwards but Nord Stream 1 was still in use up until August 2022. Western European nations were complaining about cuts in its service before Russia suspended its use in a bid to pressure them to relax sanctions. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/26/explainer-nord-stream-1-gas-pipeline-russia-germany-europe
So a news paper that reports a Whitehouse statement or claim is guilty of the same lie if it turns out the whitehouse was lying or just wrong.
The possible logic of Russian damaging ( blown up is hyperbole ) its own UNUSED pipelines would be to give it cover when it started destroying Norwegian pipelines in order to starve western Europe of fuel.
It’s only a theory but it ...[text shortened]... e Russians had no more use for
That being said Ukraine is definitely the most likely candidate now
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/02/nord-stream-1-gazprom-announces-indefinite-shutdown-of-pipeline
Thus, Russia damaging the pipeline wouldn't really make much sense as it would reduce its leverage.
Only conspiracy theorists give much credence to the belief that Biden's announced intention shortly after the invasion to "end Nord Stream 2" meant the US would blow it up; the move was followed by economic sanctions against the builders of the pipeline not by the dispatch of the US underwater demolition teams. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-plans-sanctions-company-building-russias-nord-stream-2-pipeline-cnn-2022-02-23/
15 Nov 23
@kevcvs57 saidI find it curious that news shows so little skepticism. If Trump had said that the US didn't blow it up, they'd accuse him of lying. If Trump had said that the US DID blow it up, they'd accuse him of lying too.
So a news paper that reports a Whitehouse statement or claim is guilty of the same lie if it turns out the whitehouse was lying or just wrong.
The possible logic of Russian damaging ( blown up is hyperbole ) its own UNUSED pipelines would be to give it cover when it started destroying Norwegian pipelines in order to starve western Europe of fuel.
It’s only a theory but it ...[text shortened]... e Russians had no more use for
That being said Ukraine is definitely the most likely candidate now
It is interesting to watch major news outlets launder propaganda with no skepticism and Americans to believe it with no skepticism.
15 Nov 23
@no1marauder saidFunny. You use the phrase "conspiracy theorists" as if that somehow bolsters your point.
I had it backwards but Nord Stream 1 was still in use up until August 2022. Western European nations were complaining about cuts in its service before Russia suspended its use in a bid to pressure them to relax sanctions. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/26/explainer-nord-stream-1-gas-pipeline-russia-germany-europe
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/02 ...[text shortened]... m/business/energy/us-plans-sanctions-company-building-russias-nord-stream-2-pipeline-cnn-2022-02-23/
Do you think there is ANYTHING the public does not know about the war in Ukraine? Is it your contention that nowhere in this war does there exist a group of men who are doing harm in ways that are concealed from the public? That is what the word "conspiracy" means.
It has been said that the first casualty of war is the "truth". But you are not even slightly suspicious that what you are being told might not be an honest attempt at truth.
The US is sending billions of dollars to Ukraine. They are providing weapons, expertise, and aid, all while imposing sanctions on Russia. But the only thing you think Ukraine is doing independent from the US is blowing up a pipeline in the middle of a war where their people are being shot at while also hungry and cold. Are you even a little skeptical about that?
Where did the Washington Post get this story? The CIA? Is that the same group that said Hunter's laptop looked like Russian disinformation?