Open letter calls for Scholz to stop arms deliveries to Ukraine

@eintaluj said
The authors argue that Russia is much bigger and stronger than Ukraine and Russia would win the war anyway. Sending weapons to Ukraine and continuing the battles only leads to greater and greater losses of human lives and civilian infrastructure.

The authors also suggest that Ukraine should withdraw its army from big cities to avoid civilian casualties.

This makes sense from a purely practical standpoint. However, the Ukrainians themselves would rather fight and die for their country than simply hand it over to Russia. They will never give up as long as they have tools to fight with.

That being the case, it's better to help the Ukrainians since they'd prefer death over dishonor.

@kevcvs57 said
Give Ukraine better air defence systems so they can at least set up safe havens in the major cities like Kyiv and Liviv
Zelensky made just that offer about a month ago but Russia cannot just hold what they have and give nothing of their recent gains back they should regroup in the Donbas position pre invasion but there is an argument for them keeping the land bridge to Crim ...[text shortened]... unately it’s not for me or you to tell Ukraine how much of their sovereign land they should give up.

Air defence systems would be good. But I am afraid that against the hypersonic missiles and cruise missiles Russia uses these interception systems are helpless. Lviv was attacked again with cruise missiles. Air defence systems would probably help against Russian planes and drones and other missiles.

@athousandyoung said
In the long run, considering how many people died in the Holodomor, perhaps more civilians will die under Russian rule if Ukraine surrenders.

I am not going to predict it. Anyway, Putin is not Stalin and current Russia is not the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, Russia sends hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid to Ukraine. It is also possible that the civilians in the area of unoccupied Ukraine will be in much larger trouble than those in the occupied areas or those who have been evacuated to Russia (Ukraine claims they have been deported). The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined. There are many troubles coming in the long run.

@vivify said
This makes sense from a purely practical standpoint. However, the Ukrainians themselves would rather fight and die for their country than simply hand it over to Russia. They will never give up as long as they have tools to fight with.

That being the case, it's better to help the Ukrainians since they'd prefer death over dishonor.

I partly agree. There are a lot of people in Ukraine who will never surrender to Russia. But I am not going to predict the percentage. Obviously, however, such people are politically dominating in Ukraine. Actually, I am afraid that no Ukrainian politician can sign a document giving the land away without being in great danger of assassination. The problem, however, is about how many lives they have to lose?
Note that the Ukrainians simply do not know their real losses, all such information is banned and regarded as Russian propaganda. So I do not know either how many people they have lost already.

@eintaluj said
I am not going to predict it. Anyway, Putin is not Stalin and current Russia is not the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, Russia sends hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid to Ukraine. It is also possible that the civilians in the area of unoccupied Ukraine will be in much larger trouble than those in the occupied areas or those who have been evacuated to Russia (Ukraine cla ...[text shortened]... d). The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined. There are many troubles coming in the long run.

The Russians are mining crop fields and slaughtering farm animals. They are deliberately acting to starve Ukraine as we speak. So maybe you should predict it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/23/ukraines-farmers-facing-ruin-russians-leave-animals-slaughtered/

@eintaluj said
Air defence systems would be good. But I am afraid that against the hypersonic missiles and cruise missiles Russia uses these interception systems are helpless. Lviv was attacked again with cruise missiles. Air defence systems would probably help against Russian planes and drones and other missiles.

Oh I’m think their are systems that could probably stop many of the cruise missiles and although the hyper sonic weapons are virtually impossible to stop at the moment I don’t think Putin will want to fire so many that would say give NATO an opportunity to figure out a defence against them plus I believe he’s used one so far so he’s either not got that many or he’s reticent to deploy them.
Unless he wants to face crippling sanctions and NATO weaponry forever he will also have to find a solution, it will have to be one that he can sell as a victory.
The reason I think that the pre invasion position is doable is that I don’t think that NATO will want to give Ukraine the kind of weapons it will need to take that area back given that as of today the vast majority of civilians there are pro Russian and want nothing to do with Kyiv. The Kyiv government would be the aggressor in that case and the goodwill it has now would probably evaporate.

@eintaluj said
Note that the Ukrainians simply do not know their real losses, all such information is banned and regarded as Russian propaganda.

I don't see why you believe that. Zelensky gives frequent updates on the death toll, which Russia constantly denies. He has said "tens of thousands" have died in Mariupol alone:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220411-zelensky-says-he-believes-tens-of-thousands-killed-in-mariupol

The problem, however, is about how many lives they have to lose?

That's for the Ukrainians to decide. It's their home and they have chosen to defend it, even at the cost of their own lives.

@eintaluj said
I partly agree. There are a lot of people in Ukraine who will never surrender to Russia. But I am not going to predict the percentage. Obviously, however, such people are politically dominating in Ukraine. Actually, I am afraid that no Ukrainian politician can sign a document giving the land away without being in great danger of assassination. The problem, however, is about ...[text shortened]... and regarded as Russian propaganda. So I do not know either how many people they have lost already.

Do you think that the Russian people have a clue about the true numbers of their dead soldiers, sailors and airmen?
It will not matter so much what the Ukrainian losses are, they do not have a choice given that option to high mortality rate among their forces is the loss of their country and leaving themselves to the tender mercy of Russian and Chechen soldiers.

@eintaluj said
And what is the best way to avoid civilian casualties if Russia will not withdraw back?

So you say:

The bully needs to be rewarded.

Did I get you right?

@athousandyoung said
In the long run, considering how many people died in the Holodomor, perhaps more civilians will die under Russian rule if Ukraine surrenders.

Quite. By surrendering, Ukraine would rely on Russia's good intentions; and Russia has repeatedly proved that it has none.

@athousandyoung said
The Russians are mining crop fields and slaughtering farm animals. They are deliberately acting to starve Ukraine as we speak. So maybe you should predict it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/23/ukraines-farmers-facing-ruin-russians-leave-animals-slaughtered/

My God! Did they slaughter farm animals near Lviv? They are wasting their most expensive high precision hypersonic missiles to kill the caws. Who could predict it.

@vivify said
I don't see why you believe that. Zelensky gives frequent updates on the death toll, which Russia constantly denies. He has said "tens of thousands" have died in Mariupol alone:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220411-zelensky-says-he-believes-tens-of-thousands-killed-in-mariupol

The problem, however, is about how many lives they have to lose?

That's f ...[text shortened]... to decide. It's their home and they have chosen to defend it, even at the cost of their own lives.

"I don't see why you believe that. Zelensky gives frequent updates on the death toll, which Russia constantly denies."

- Believe what? I do not see any reason to believe the propaganda of either side.

"The problem, however, is about how many lives they have to lose?

That's for the Ukrainians to decide."

- It is up to Germany to decide whether to send weapons to Ukraine or not. And Ukraine accuses everyone who does not send weapons or who wants to stay neutral. In that way, Ukraine has lost any moral right to declare that it is their and only their business what they are doing there.

@kevcvs57 said
Do you think that the Russian people have a clue about the true numbers of their dead soldiers, sailors and airmen?
It will not matter so much what the Ukrainian losses are, they do not have a choice given that option to high mortality rate among their forces is the loss of their country and leaving themselves to the tender mercy of Russian and Chechen soldiers.

What makes you think that I am thinking such things you are attributing to me? We were not talking about whether Russia is rational, we were talking about whether Germany is rational when sending weapons to Ukraine.

@ponderable said
So you say:

The bully needs to be rewarded.

Did I get you right?

No, you did not get anything right. You just changed the theme and context.

@eintaluj said
What makes you think that I am thinking such things you are attributing to me? We were not talking about whether Russia is rational, we were talking about whether Germany is rational when sending weapons to Ukraine.

He’s I think it’s a rational thing to do based on self interest and the morally right thing to do.
I don’t agree with arming civil conflicts where two sides are roughly equal but to stand by while a powerful country destroys a relatively weaker country in your own backyard is the height of stupidity and moral cowardice.