Paying Debt Doesn't Help Economy?!

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Consumerism is NOT capitalism! Capitalism is investing money, consumerism is losing money for short term pleasure.

There is a version of it called consumer capitalism where products have well defined life cycles and the growth of companies and the profitability they offer those who are willing to invest in their success comes largely as a result of consumers in the market place consuming their products at an increasing rate ( ie: consumerism).

The two concepts are inextricably linked.

Originally posted by kmax87
There is a version of it called consumer capitalism where products have well defined life cycles and the growth of companies and the profitability they offer those who are willing to invest in their success comes largely as a result of consumers in the market place consuming their products at an increasing rate ( ie: consumerism).

The two concepts are inextricably linked.

The increasing rate is the problem. That is actually a pyramid scheme, if the population is stable, then there can be no increased consumption. The US population growth is pretty low so that limits the increase in consumerism. Now that our economy is in serious doo doo, that is out the window. One thing for sure, I personally won't see a cent of this latest government bribe. I already owe 5000 bucks in back taxes so thats where my check will go before I even see it. So I won't even get the chance to be a good citizen and buy more ice cream and soda and cell phones.

Originally posted by kmax87
There is a version of it called consumer capitalism where products have well defined life cycles and the growth of companies and the profitability they offer those who are willing to invest in their success comes largely as a result of consumers in the market place consuming their products at an increasing rate ( ie: consumerism).

The two concepts are inextricably linked.

"Consumer capitalism" is not the Protestant/Chinese/Mexican work ethic. It's not what brought us to power in WWII.

What is described above is long hours, good attitude, respect for work, and using money for more important things than consumption...whether that be accumulating capital, sending it to the parents in Mexico/China, whatever.

Consumption is how the stupid people fund Paris Hilton's lifestyle while keeping themselves at the bottom of the food chain in the process.

Pay fifteen bucks for a meal...that's ten bucks spent on being served. Nice for the restaraunt, but not good for YOU!

Of course I spend money on luxuries, but I fight tooth and nail not to. I really struggle over it. I have almost no social life any more because there's always seven dollar drinks and the like involved with having a social life.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
"Consumer capitalism" is not the Protestant/Chinese/Mexican work ethic. It's not what brought us to power in WWII.

Consumerism is not just the buying of luxuries and the funding of celebrity lifestyles. Nor is it just conspicuous consumption where you buy a new car that has the sticker price of a town house, or where you pay more for the service than for the meal.

Consumerism is as basic as buying produce in a one use only throw away container. Consumerism is having to update your perfectly good Windows XP to Vista because if you don't you may lose the functionality in some of your software applications as time goes on. Consumerism is buying a $10 - shirt or $20 shoes at Walmart that you will have to replace in three to four months, but that you convince yourself is the best option because the initial cost of these temporary items is very low. Consumerism is updating your mass produced auto every 2 to 3 years because you want to minimize the cost of car ownership and still have something to be proud of while driving.

Consumerism is every basic no frills take away meal you buy in the frozen food section of your supermarket or from your fast food franchise. Unless you are a primary producer and live off the land and have owned the same vehicle for the past ten years at least, and recycle everything, and mend your own clothing and refuse to use non recyclable containers, and take your own bags when you shop and are still running windows dos, then sir, I hate you inform you, but you, like the rest of us are a consumer, and by definition that puts you in the middle of consumer capitalism and consumerism in general.

By having energy in the form of electricity piped to your home you consume directly or by owning credit cards and being part of a financial system of interconnected worldwide financial institutions, you are indirectly a passive and silent consumer as you benefit from the investment that these organizations make and reap the benefits of living in a social system made possible by the consumption of goods based on well defined finite life cycles.

So unless you are Amish ( and by being on the internet I would doubt that) and unless you were totally self sufficient in terms of never needing to purchase any commodity that had a one use only or limited life span, then to think of yourself as not being consumerist is really an act of self delusion.

Originally posted by kmax87
Consumerism is not just the buying of luxuries and the funding of celebrity lifestyles. Nor is it just conspicuous consumption where you buy a new car that has the sticker price of a town house, or where you pay more for the service than for the meal.

Consumerism is as basic as buying produce in a one use only throw away container. Consumerism is having to ...[text shortened]... ife span, then to think of yourself as not being consumerist is really an act of self delusion.

You define owing money to credit cards as consumerism. If that's the case, then why does Bush want us to shop and not pay our debts? Either way we're consuming and thus fuelling the economy, right?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
"Consumer capitalism" is not the Protestant/Chinese/Mexican work ethic. It's not what brought us to power in WWII.

What gave the USA such a boost after WWII was enormous industrial capacity and zero infrastructural damage, not to mention armed forces on the ground all over the world. But let's not forget that the US didn't become the dominant world power for quite some time.

In any case, quit harking back to the glory days of the USA; it's 2008.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
You define owing money to credit cards as consumerism. If that's the case, then why does Bush want us to shop and not pay our debts? Either way we're consuming and thus fuelling the economy, right?

Because while you are continuing to shop you take products off shelves which have to be re-stocked which means goods move which means exchange of resources for commodities which means the wheels of industry are still turning. Also you will still be servicing the interest on that debt and the banks would still have something to fall back on and the cycle continues.

When you lose your consumer confidence and get all bearish about the future and stop purchasing new goods off the shelves, you halt the flow along the supply chain which means a lot of people who you would not think are going to be affected by that slow down are also now unable to spend the way they used to and so on and so on such that when you multiply the effect across the whole nation of people slowing down their consumption of goods and services, you suddenly see businesses start to close and the whole market starts to contract.

In this environment to be insecure about the future and start to pay off your debt instead of improving matters in the economy actually hinders it because the health of the overall economy is all about flow. Paying off debt shortens the total amount the banks will take from you which from their perspective is not good, and takes money out of the system that could have been helping to keep the flow going.

The absolute truth about it is that whether the market is optimistic or pessimistic about the economy, the actual buffer you or I might have against financial disaster might be no more than about one or two pay checks. I think its fair to say that these days with the level of credit most people carry this has become an increasingly widespread characteristic of life as we know it.

Given that the only real difference in our state of financial health then is the perception and positivity we have towards spending, it would seem imperative that we see economic upturn and downturn for the fraud they both represent and keep on keeping on spending as we normally would as this is the only real long term guarantee that keeps the whole system functioning.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
What gave the USA such a boost after WWII was enormous industrial capacity and zero infrastructural damage, not to mention armed forces on the ground all over the world. But let's not forget that the US didn't become the dominant world power for quite some time.

In any case, quit harking back to the glory days of the USA; it's 2008.

And if you'll notice, our economy's hurting and our President is advocating spending luxuries. I AM talking about 2008. I'm pointing out that we need to tighten our belts and focus on our work ethic and intelligent investment of our money.

Originally posted by kmax87
Because while you are continuing to shop you take products off shelves which have to be re-stocked which means goods move which means exchange of resources for commodities which means the wheels of industry are still turning. Also you will still be servicing the interest on that debt and the banks would still have something to fall back on and the cycle conti ...[text shortened]... ally would as this is the only real long term guarantee that keeps the whole system functioning.

Businesses which sell impractical, consumable items will collapse maybe. If they do, good.

The health of the overall economy may be about flow, but it's flow from the common folk to the rich. I don't care about that flow.

Paying off debt shortens the total amount the banks will take from you which from their perspective is not good

Of course it's good. They need money NOW, not more money later (maybe, if I don't declare bankruptcy). NOW is the time when things are getting bad.

takes money out of the system that could have been helping to keep the flow going

So I'm part of "the system" but the credit card companies are not?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
And if you'll notice, our economy's hurting and our President is advocating spending luxuries.

I don't believe you. Der Schwarzer Ritter denies it ... slimjim denies it ... practically everyone denies it ... Are you expressing anti-American sentiments?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung

So I'm part of "the system" but the credit card companies are not?

No you are just different parts of the same system, but if we were to use the flow analogy, 'current' spending (pun intended) is you and I and everything you purchase on a daily basis that puts money into everyones hands immediately all along the chain. Cash flow.

Debt and the business of credit is more like the way rivers are pooled into dams. Its the potential of flow not flow itself. Don't confuse using your credit card with the accumulation of debt and the business of credit/debt. Credit card use acts like cash flow as it keeps the movement of products and services without any hiccups. People get paid just as well whether you use cash or your credit card.

But when you have a drought at the river delta and you would rather carry your water upstream to build a a dam higher up the river system, instead of allowing your water to flow with gravity down the system, you may then by analogy understand the futility of what you are doing as opposed to letting the sun and evaporation do the work for you and deposit huge volumes of water for you in the catchment areas. The sun in this instance would be the financial power of the Fed and a vast array of investment and other banking/financial institutions.

Squeezing every last drop you have into small containers and carrying it upstream is like trying to do the work of the sun, while at the same time you starve the river system and all those whose livelihood depend on it.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
You define owing money to credit cards as consumerism. If that's the case, then why does Bush want us to shop and not pay our debts? Either way we're consuming and thus fuelling the economy, right?

probably it'd work if people would try it. they've got the best economists with the best economic data to work from. and advisers from industry.

Originally posted by zeeblebot
probably it'd work if people would try it. they've got the best economists with the best economic data to work from. and advisers from industry.

And they are astute businessmen possibly with an interest in lining their own pockets. Remember, Bush is an oil man. Oil's a consumable.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
And they are astute businessmen possibly with an interest in lining their own pockets. Remember, Bush is an oil man. Oil's a consumable.

I would not mistrust the word of an astute business man simply because he seems to have more to gain than I would. Why cut off his nose and end up spiting my face?

Originally posted by kmax87
I would not mistrust the word of an astute business man simply because he seems to have more to gain than I would. Why cut off his nose and end up spiting my face?

But I don't have anything to gain. "The Economy" - a vague abstraction - supposedly does. It's like saying "donate money to the rich...it's good for America." WTF?

Our local economist doesn't agree, by the way. I trust telerion more than Bush.

Former Presidents had those advisors and such, and they didn't recommend going on a shopping spree. Only Bush did.