Privacy in the US

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
Just go live in North Korea, Russia, or Iran and get back to us on how your freedom is being abused in Big Bad America.

The US doesn't need to descend to the level of those nations for we the people to worry. At the rate we're going, it won't be long till we catch up.

Originally posted by JS357
There is always going to be tension between security and privacy (or liberty in general).

Liberty and privacy are usually the loser.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No wonder security experts are questioning that figure, any hacker with a pc can crack 8 digit alphanumeric passwords in minutes,

Ordinary desktop computers can test over a hundred million passwords per second using password cracking tools that run on a general purpose CPU and billions of passwords per second using GPU-based password cracking too ...[text shortened]... PC, apples encryption is a gimmik, 5 1/2 years, using what? two tin cans and a piece of string?

The NSA probably had the encryption cracked before the first I-phone 6 got off the production line.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Now you are simply stating the obvious.

It clearly wasn't obvious to you until I pointed it out.

In the real world people dont change passwords nearly as often as they should and if some dude with a PC can hack an eight digit alphanumeric password in 16 minutes by brute force then how long is someone like a government agency with essentially unlimited resources likely to take to crack a 6 digit one provided it is valid? five and a half years, I don't think so.
I see it is still not obvious to you.

Let me try and explain it again.
A dude with a PC hacking an eight digit alphanumeric password in 16 minutes by brute force, can only do so if the time to test each such password is very short.
If it takes longer to test each password in the iPhone case, then it is impossible for you to know how long a government agency would take unless you know:
a) how long it would take to test each password.
b) how many computers they have available for the task.
You can probably estimate b), but you do not know a) and comparing it to the dude with a PC is does not tell you the answer to a).

However, I do agree with the experts that the estimate is almost certainly wrong, as it was probably made by someone like you who doesn't understand how it works.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It clearly wasn't obvious to you until I pointed it out.

[b]In the real world people dont change passwords nearly as often as they should and if some dude with a PC can hack an eight digit alphanumeric password in 16 minutes by brute force then how long is someone like a government agency with essentially unlimited resources likely to take to crack a 6 ...[text shortened]... ertainly wrong, as it was probably made by someone like you who doesn't understand how it works.

yes it was and no you are still only pointing out the obvious,

a) data has already been provided on the capability of computers to test passwords by brute force, you may make reference to that.
b) data has already been provided detailing how more computers make the task quicker, you are merely making some kind of reference to the obvious
c) trying to obfuscate the matter will not help anyone, you have merely pointed out what is obvious.

Thankyou for personally attacking my character your logical fallacy is duly noted.

Originally posted by normbenign
The NSA probably had the encryption cracked before the first I-phone 6 got off the production line.

There was claims that the NSA had some kind of back door on some I-phone operating systems which as you can imagine was vehemently denied by Apple, it never the less hurt their image and this is perhaps an attempt to redress that. As far as I understand it, the new Apple operating system is quite buggy on the new i-phones and already they are issuing fixes.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Now you are simply stating the obvious. In the real world people dont change passwords nearly as often as they should and if some dude with a PC can hack an eight digit alphanumeric password in 16 minutes by brute force then how long is someone like a government agency with essentially unlimited resources likely to take to crack a 6 digit one provided it is valid? five and a half years, I don't think so.

if the phone becomes a lifeless brick for 3 hours every 3 failed attempts, and you cannot bypass this, it will take significantly longer.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
if the phone becomes a lifeless brick for 3 hours every 3 failed attempts, and you cannot bypass this, it will take significantly longer.

Again this goes without saying.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes it was and no you are still only pointing out the obvious,

a) data has already been provided on the capability of computers to test passwords by brute force, you may make reference to that.

That data only applies when testing passwords against a given type of encryption.

b) data has already been provided detailing how more computers make the task quicker, you are merely making some kind of reference to the obvious
Agreed.

c) trying to obfuscate the matter will not help anyone, you have merely pointed out what is obvious.

Thankyou for personally attacking my character your logical fallacy is duly noted.
There was no logical fallacy. I pointed out to you that you are wrong, and you clearly don't like that, but that doesn't make a logical fallacy.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That data only applies when testing passwords against a given type of encryption.

[b]b) data has already been provided detailing how more computers make the task quicker, you are merely making some kind of reference to the obvious
Agreed.

c) trying to obfuscate the matter will not help anyone, you have merely pointed out what is obvious.

...[text shortened]... ou that you are wrong, and you clearly don't like that, but that doesn't make a logical fallacy.

how predictable and how banal, you used an argument, my alleged ignorance to attempt to make a point that the so called experts are equally as ignorant, that is a logical fallacy, why? because my alleged ignorance has no bearing on the point that you were trying to make and is entirely independent from it. Oh dear! Once again you have managed to reduce a debate to a personal level, is it really the best you can do, seriously? is it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how predictable and how banal, you used an argument, my alleged ignorance to attempt to make a point that the so called experts are equally as ignorant,

No, I didn't. Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. And no, this is not another logical fallacy just because I am criticizing you personally.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, I didn't. Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. And no, this is not another logical fallacy just because I am criticizing you personally.

no it doesn't here is your statement again,

However, I do agree with the experts that the estimate is almost certainly wrong, as it was probably made by someone like you who doesn't understand how it works.

Its a personal attack and an attempt to use an aspect of my persona (my alleged ignorance) to state that others also cannot make any kind of accurate assessment being 'like me'. Its illogical and fallacious because their ability to make an accurate evaluation of the length of time is not determined by my level of alleged ignorance as I have pointed out. What you could have and should have said was

However, I do agree with the experts that the estimate is almost certainly wrong, as it was probably made by someone who doesn't understand how it works.

their ability to determine 'how long it takes', is entirely independent of my 'alleged ignorance', if you don't understand how or why its illogical or fallacious, ask someone for help, simply piling more insults onto the pyre is not helping you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how predictable and how banal, you used an argument, my alleged ignorance to attempt to make a point that the so called experts are equally as ignorant, that is a logical fallacy, why? because my alleged ignorance has no bearing on the point that you were trying to make and is entirely independent from it. Oh dear! Once again you have managed to reduce a debate to a personal level, is it really the best you can do, seriously? is it?

if he demonstrated you wrong, it isn't an ad hominem.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
if he demonstrated you wrong, it isn't an ad hominem.

he has done nothing of the sort, stating that i am ignorant and using it as the basis for saying that other people also cannot make a valid evaluation because they are and I quote, 'like me', is not stating that I am wrong, its a logical fallacy because what i know or do not know is entirely independent of other peoples ability to make an evaluation and if you don't understand why its a logical fallacy may i suggest you ask someone for help.

Ok, ill make is simple, what he has infact done is classic ad hominem , he has attacked my personality or personal traits in an attempt to reinforce his own position being that being that the apple guys are also incapable of making a valid evaluation because they are 'like me' (allegedly ignorant)

He does it all the time, my reading comprehension is allegedly poor which he has once again attempted to utilise to reinforce his own position, oh dear, how predictable, how banal and how ad hominem.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he has done nothing of the sort, stating that i am ignorant and using it as the basis for saying that other people also cannot make a valid evaluation because they are and I quote, 'like me', is not stating that I am wrong, its a logical fallacy because what i know or do not know is entirely independent of other peoples ability to make an evaluation ...[text shortened]... o utilise to reinforce his own position, oh dear, how predictable, how banal and how ad hominem.

i won't continue this discussion any more, it seems neither of you are making a clear point and in fact are quite on the same page.