Security without justice

@zahlanzi said
first of all, being a socialist is not the insult you think it is.

second of all, thanks for proving my point. criticizing israel for killing around 20000 palestinians is jew hating, huh?

go fuk yourself you ghoul

it gets old seeing you dumb bastards attack Israel when they are forced to defend themselves.

@wajoma said
zahlooney bambooozles post can be summarised thusly: left wing talking points.

Israel is not an apartheid state many races and religions co-exist peacefully within it's borders. Apartheid is state discrimination on the basis of race. Palestinian is not a race. Muslim is not a race.

You can reply to this relevant succinct demolition of your left wing talking point, just ...[text shortened]... y you didn't look at whose post this was. Say you thought you were replying to suziman or something.

Not only do they co-exist peacefully, there are many Arabs who are in parliament as representatives of the people. What these extremists and their supporters would like you to believe is that Jews hate all Muslims. There are over 2 million Palestinians living in Israel and they are not going to leave and go to Gaza or West Band becuase they are decent moderate Muslims, with a good lifestyle and are well treated as citizens of Israel. The crooks and terrorists are living in Gaza. That place needs a complete overhaul and they are getting it, thankfully.

@earl-of-trumps said
The IDF cannot keep safe the 1,200 citizens that lost their lives, no matter how much the IDF pulverize the Palestinians.

It would be wise for palestinians to quit supporting terrorist such as hamas.

@vivify said
Bedouins were in the Negev before long before 1948. At least since the 1800s, and according to some sources, 1400s.

You claim Israel evicting terrorists: how do they determine whose a "terrorist"? Why also expel the women children? It seems you're not using objective sources.

Jews purchased land? Didn't know that. Which land *specifically* was purchased? Was it ...[text shortened]... pted)..

Israel's borders are still disputed territory, though as time goes by it becomes less so.

The Bedouins of the Negev are a recent addition, around 1948. There are other bedouins of the Sinai area which go back a few hundred years.

Terrorists are people who perform acts of terrorism and they include women and children. It is easy to know who those are and who their families are and where they live etc. One of things at which Israel excels is intelligence. Im pretty sure they already know what part of Qatar and other areas Hamas is hiding out.

Google land ownership in Palestine prior to 1948 and you will see all the land purchased by Jews. Here is a good one:

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208638/#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20estimated%20that,big%20Arab%20landowners%20of%20Palestine.

The UN Partition was the only one on the table. It was passed by the UN and accepted by the Jews. Since the Arabs refused negotiation then there was nothing to change and the UN resolution went through, it was enforced and it stood the test of time. If one party refused to negotiate and wanted all the land then they lost out.

Disputing Israels right to exist and occupy the land is as silly as the indigenous Indians disputing Europeans right to settle in the USA.

@zahlanzi said
Oh sorry, i forgot.

Since you are now using right wing talking points i forgot to preface my point with the obligatory mantra, lest you or others stamp me as anti-semite and hamas sympathizer.


"I condemn Hamas, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Hamas bad"

Immature people, lacking exposure to the real world tend to lean to the left. But sooner or later they mature, gain knowledge, learn for past mistakes, they inevitably drift to the right.

@vivify said
Words like "justice" and "security" are pretty words but fail in face of violence.

1,200 Israelis murdered on October 7th, and over 200 hostages taken by Hamas. No matter how much you can rationalize Hamas' attack, the decision to use violence as your answer will only breed more violence.

Is the blockade inhumane? Absolutely. Is stealing is moving Israelis into ho ...[text shortened]... answer, not only does it sand zero chance ever working, it only makes things worse for Palestinians.

You think if the Palestinians all behave themselves the settlement of Palestinian lands by Israelis will stop? I think it will increase and the first time a Palestinian throws a stone in response to having his home bulldozed the Israelis and their allies will say look there can be no peace with the Palestinians
Unless people understand that Hamas is a boon to Israelis hard Zionist right wing and that Israel’s hard Zionist right wing is a boon to Hamas innocent Israelis and Palestinians will keep getting slaughtered.
There have been no street demos against Netanyahu since October 7th and support for Hamas in the West Bank is swelling since the flattening of Gaza and the killing of Palestinians in the West Bank stated in response to it.

@zahlanzi said
it makes me sad you are now spewing right wing talking points.

hamas, a terrorist organization, does terrorism. Israel kills 20000 people, half of them children. With the complicity of the US. Indiscriminately. Just carpet bombing a densely packed area, while the leadership of hamas is hiding in Quatar anyway.

If someone takes some hostages in a mall in the US, do you ...[text shortened]... riminately right now, clearly doesn't adhere to this notion.






I am disappointed in you.

You've my post as attempting to justify Israel's attacks. It isn't. On a different thread I criticized the U.S. for blocking a U.N. resolution demanding a ceasefire.

You argue about Israel's "proportion". 1,200 civilian murders from Hamas is not proportional to people having homes stolen. You keep glossing over this.

Are Hamas' actions understandable? Absolutely. But so is Israel's response to 1,200 murders and 240 hostages. Think about that: in response to eviction from homes, Hamas slaughtered 1,200 people. Is that proportional?

Once people fail consider that neither Israel or Palestine's actions are in a vacuum, their arguments also fail. There's decades of context for both sides to consider.

One other thing: If Hamas ever gains the ability to attack with the same destruction as Israel, they absolutely would. And their actions, while not justifiable, would most certainly be understandable. Just like Israel.

@vivify said
You've my post as attempting to justify Israel's attacks. It isn't. On a different thread I criticized the U.S. for blocking a U.N. resolution demanding a ceasefire.

You argue about Israel's "proportion". 1,200 civilian murders from Hamas is not proportional to people having homes stolen. You keep glossing over this.

Are Hamas' actions understandable? Absolutely ...[text shortened]... And their actions, while not justifiable, would most certainly be understandable. Just like Israel.

“Are Hamas' actions understandable? Absolutely.”

I cant believe you said that…you support terrorism

@kevcvs57 said
You think if the Palestinians all behave themselves the settlement of Palestinian lands by Israelis will stop?

You've misread my post if you think that's what I've said.

If Palestinians stop responding with violence, Israel would also stop. The Zionists would still try to commit crimes through apartheid and stealing land; but it's a far better situation than rampant slaughter. It's also a barrier to diplomacy.

Israel stealing Palestinian land is a war crime. Full stop. In no way does this justify Hamas murdering 1,200 civilians.

And yes: Hamas' actions are also in the context of an inhumane blockade. The blockade is in response to decades of aggression. And so on and so fourth; a chick-or-the-egg cycle of blaming the other continues.

Unless people understand that Hamas is a boon to Israelis hard Zionist right wing and that Israel’s hard Zionist right wing is a boon to Hamas innocent Israelis and Palestinians will keep getting slaughtered.

You're correct. That's what I wish more people on either side of the debate would focus on.

@rajk999 said
The Bedouins of the Negev are a recent addition, around 1948.

You're wrong. Bedouins have inhabit that land at least since the 1800s and possibly as early as the 1400s.

I even showed you a pro-Israel website saying this so you don't accuse the source of bias:

https://www.beinharimtours.com/bedouins-in-israel/

@mott-the-hoople said
“Are Hamas' actions understandable? Absolutely.”

I cant believe you said that…you support terrorism

In that same post I said their actions are not justifiable. Understandable doesn't mean justified.

A man punching another guy for insulting his wife is understandable. Doesn't mean it's justified.

@kevcvs57 said
Unless people understand that Hamas is a boon to Israelis hard Zionist right wing and that Israel’s hard Zionist right wing is a boon to Hamas innocent Israelis and Palestinians will keep getting slaughtered.

All of my posts regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should be understood in this light.

@vivify said
You've my post as attempting to justify Israel's attacks. It isn't. On a different thread I criticized the U.S. for blocking a U.N. resolution demanding a ceasefire.

You argue about Israel's "proportion". 1,200 civilian murders from Hamas is not proportional to people having homes stolen. You keep glossing over this.

Are Hamas' actions understandable? Absolutely ...[text shortened]... And their actions, while not justifiable, would most certainly be understandable. Just like Israel.

"You've my post as attempting to justify Israel's attacks. It isn't. "
It makes me a little happier you think it isn't. Not a lot though. It absolutely reads like a justification. In the face of the massacre on october the 7th, Israel killed several times more civilians. Over several times more actions.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. They answer to nobody. They break the rules of warfare and engage in terror attacks because that's all they are capable of.

Is israel saying they are a more brutal, more efficient terrorist organization? They engage in every act of terror Hamas does and then some only they DO have the resources to do way more damage. And they repeatedly stated they answer to nobody.


"But so is Israel's response to 1,200 murders and 240 hostages"
Why is it understandable? Does it accomplish anything? Anything they claim they would, anyway. because it definitely accomplishes the real goal which is kill as many Palestinians as possible. Hamas is still alive and well and now all the orphans and widows and childless parents are potential supporters or even recruits. There are still rusty pipes to make bombs with. The leadership is still alive in Quatar and every jew hater is still funding them.

How is it an understandable response?

"Once people fail consider that neither Israel or Palestine's actions are in a vacuum, their arguments also fail. There's decades of context for both sides to consider."
General statement that doesn't mean anything. Is israel's brutal response taken out of context? Is anything you think I haven't considered that would make bombing an entire population for the actions of a few anything but reprehensible?


"One other thing: If Hamas ever gains the ability to attack with the same destruction as Israel, they absolutely would. And their actions, while not justifiable, would most certainly be understandable. Just like Israel"
What use for the discussion do you think this other thing has? Hamas, in a hypothetical future would bomb israel with hypothetical bombs, just like they're doing now in the non-hypothetical present with very real bombs. Sooooo... justification? Pre-emptive strike?



I am disappointed in you.

@vivify said
All of my posts regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should be understood in this light.

You're doing a bad job in conveying that

@vivify said
You've misread my post if you think that's what I've said.

If Palestinians stop responding with violence, Israel would also stop. The Zionists would still try to commit crimes through apartheid and stealing land; but it's a far better situation than slaughter.

Israel stealing Palestinian land is a war crime. Full stop. In no way does this justify Hamas murdering 1,2 ...[text shortened]... [/b]

You're correct. That's what I wish more people on either side of the debate would focus on.

“ In no way does this justify Hamas murdering 1,200 civilians.”

You fence riding idiot