15 Dec 04
Originally posted by no1marauderWhat about non-christian theists? While I admit that I may be the only one, I certainly would like a catagory as well. I certainly don't want to be lumped in with the born-agains or the atheists(at least the outspoken ones)--I prefer to have a position that can actually be concidered open-minded, and neither of those groups count.
That is an interesting observation. I'll tell ya what; I'm an agnostic - I don't know if they're a God or not. If you figure an appropriate scoring system, I will change my view to RB HILL bible thumping if the score rises above n widgets; if the score goes below n, I will adopt RWingett's scornful atheism. Points should be tallied each wee ...[text shortened]... n each Friday and I will join the appropriate camp for the next week. Is my proposal acceptable?
15 Dec 04
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesAnd if he is not omnipotent, he can't be god. Therefore he doesn't exist. Assuming of course that properities that you have assigned to the law of non-contradiction i.e. being greater than god do hold up to scrutiny.
That's the point of this thread - to get people to acknowledge that omnipotence is not a property that can be held by any being, God or otherwise, acting within or upon a universe in which the law of non-contradiction holds. If God exists, he is not omnipotent.
15 Dec 04
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Originally posted by DoctorScribblesIf he was limited in his powers, then whatever created those limitations would be the creater, the supreme being. Or if the limitations were formed independently the he would not have created the universe. Eitherway at best he would be a supernatural being with model making talent. Therefore God couldn't exist in a biblical sense.
I wouldn't say that this must be true. There could conceivably be a non-omnipotent God, and he wouldn't even have to be all that different from the Biblical God.
15 Dec 04
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesIf God is omnipotent, then he is at the root of all power. If your law of non-contradiction is a power, then God would have to be at the root of it. If your law of non-contradiction is more powerful than God, then God is at the root of something more powerful than he is.
That's the point of this thread - to get people to acknowledge that omnipotence is not a property that can be held by any being, God or otherwise, acting within or upon a universe in which the law of non-contradiction holds. If God exists, he is not omnipotent.
It gives me a headache to think about, and it doesn't lead anywhere.
While it is true that nothing can exist that is in contradiction to something else, I don't think simple grade school logic is capable of leading us out of this morass. The concept of God, that is whatever or who ever God is, if He is an actual being (picture an old man sitting on a cloud) or something else that we only consider as a being for the sake of convenience, is completely ineffable. The puppet can never truly know its puppeteer.
God is unknowable, undescribable. As Merlin says in "Excalibur," one look at the Dragon in its entirity would burn you to cinders (that isn't a quote--I don't have time to fast forward through the movie right now).
This is the whole point to God, freeing oneself by the belief in a power that is beyond yourself, beyond simple household common sense. Whether that be through Christ or through Budda or though your dog Spot really doesn't matter. It is not for us to say whether God is omnipotent or not. It makes absolutely no difference.
If it makes you happy, let's say he's not omnipotent, that he has limits. He's still a good deal beyond you, but that doesn't matter either. The Psalms (one of the few areas of the Bible that I enjoy reading) is full of examples of people telling God where to shove it. (Oh God why hast thou forsaken me? etc.)
I don't really care if anyone believes me when I say this stuff. I don't believe in eternal damnation past the simple seperation from God, so I'm not worried about anyone's soul. I spew my thoughts here becasue I have no pulpit and they have to spill out somewhere.
Oh yeah, for those that don't know me, I am not a Xian, but instead am an independent theist. I can feel the labeling eyes upon me.
15 Dec 04
Originally posted by thesonofsaulTo be fair DR S should offer some reasoning why the law of non-contradiction is more powerful than god.
If God is omnipotent, then he is at the root of all power. If your law of non-contradiction is a power, then God would have to be at the root of it. If your law of non-contradiction is more powerful than God, then God is at the root of something more powerful than he is.
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16 Dec 04
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Originally posted by Jay PeateaI thought I had already demonstrated this. I think I said it most clearly when I said that
To be fair DR S should offer some reasoning why the law of non-contradiction is more powerful than god.
Anytime God and the LNC come into conflict, God always loses.
Isn't this a common meaning of power? Which is the most powerful country between U.S. and Iceland? The U.S., because it would prevail in a conflict and get its way.
16 Dec 04
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesNot so, if god created LNC as one of the building blocks of his universe, then he could also modify it to allow for any exceptions that he wanted to included after. Being Ominpotent he can change the rules to suit, there is no conflict, it is a win win situation.
I thought I had already demonstrated this. I think I said it most clearly when I said that
Anytime God and the LNC come into conflict, God always loses.
Isn't this a common meaning of power? Which is the most powerful country between U.S. and Iceland? The U.S., because it would prevail in a conflict and get its way.
16 Dec 04
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Originally posted by Jay PeateaHardly. All of my claims are predicated on the fact that the LNC exists and persists. If you don't agree with this, if you think God can make it vanish at will, then I suppose you're right, but under such a scenario how do you answer:
Not so, if god created LNC as one of the building blocks of his universe, then he could also modify it to allow for any exceptions that he wanted to included after. Being Ominpotent he can change the rules to suit, there is no conflict, it is a win win situation.
"Can God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?." Yes, or No?
16 Dec 04
Originally posted by AThousandYoungPerhaps what you want is a fireworks show, or perhaps a deep voice coming out of the sky saying: "Behold!" You can go ahead and hold your breath if you like. It may happen.
[b]God has to reveal Himself to each person, they must
be called of God to answer Him.
How come God hasn't revealed himself to me? I want to have him reveal himself to me...[/b]
Actually, I agree with you that the idea of God doing all the work, all the revealing, is silly. It's the other way around, or else it does no good. You have to expose your Self to God, reveal your shame and fear, or there is no benefit.
(P.S. This even works if there is no God. As long as you believe, it's like self therepy--when you expose your Self to God, you get to see it for yourself. Hopefully this doesn't scare your Self back into its shell.)
16 Dec 04
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Originally posted by DoctorScribblesAs soon as I said God could not, would not lie, doesn't that reduce
OK, I can live with this. But it reduces "omnipotence" to a completely circular notion. That is, to say "God is omnipotent" is to say "God can do all things that God can do." That's making a rather empty and relative claim ...[text shortened]... ost, see this. Your defintion of omnipotence is equally circular.
God to, God can only do what God can do, in reality? Nothing is
impossible for God in the since of truth, power, and so on. He can
raise the dead, He can calm all storms, no one can deliver out of His
hand, no one can withstand His wrath and so on, He spoke the
universe into reality and set the laws of nature in motion. It may
seem like an empty and relative claim, but I think it is quite
impressive nonetheless.
I'd like to add, that since God framed the universe and it's laws He
defined the law of contradiction by doing so. So is the creator of the
the law stronger, or the creation? Is God stronger by keeping His
Word, or because He does keep His Word is He weaker?
Kelly