Originally posted by aspviper666Had that planned invasion gone ahead who knows how many casualties there would have been - one million sounds like a good one to justify the use of the bombs, though. (On the other hand, if the estimates were a lot lower - say 30-50 000, perhaps the nuke option became a little harder to justify ... I wonder if anyone in the US military back then had such low estimates ... )
The US was planning an invasion of Japan and estemated about
one million casualties.This is what prompted the nuking of Japan.
God damned whippersnappers all think they know every God damn thing.
Again, though - there was no need to drop the bombs because Japan wanted to surrender! It shouldn't require too much of a leap of logic to realise that if there was no need to drop the bombs ... there was also no need to invade Japan.
What "young whippersnapper" is this discussing the A-bomb?
"I voiced to him [Secretary of War Stimson]my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "
Originally posted by no1marauderI've read that it was the US and the Soviets who pushed for an early invasion of Europe and the British who wanted to wear down Hitler from the edges. Churchill was wary of any invasion without massive preparation, remembering the disaster at Gallipoli in WWI.
Boy, you really need to read a military history of WW II.
1) Actual US policy was to concentrate most assets on defeating the Nazis first; Germany was considered a more dangerous enemy. This was particulary true after the Japanese offensive was broken at the Battle of Midway only 6 months after Pearl Harbor.
2) As pointed out ab ...[text shortened]... d run raids against the Germans plus provided the Allied forces with invaluable intelligence.
I have even read that the Dieppe raid was laid on to show the Americans what could happen if an invasion went wrong.
Interesting.
Originally posted by no1marauderI read a very interesting book about the decision making process surrounding the dropping of the bombs - can't for the life of me remember the title or author.
What "young whippersnapper" is this discussing the A-bomb?
"I voiced to him [Secretary of War Stimson]my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weap ...[text shortened]... n was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "
From what I can recall, there were only a very small number of people advising the president to drop the bombs. Most advisors and (I think all) scientists were against dropping them at all - and if they were to be used, recommended dropping them outside of Tokyo in a forest where their destructive potential could be seen without massive loss of life.
Originally posted by KneverKnightMy memory on this point appears to have been faulty; you are correct. http://www.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_5.html
I've read that it was the US and the Soviets who pushed for an early invasion of Europe and the British who wanted to wear down Hitler from the edges. Churchill was wary of any invasion without massive preparation, remembering the disaster at Gallipoli in WWI.
I have even read that the Dieppe raid was laid on to show the Americans what could happen if an invasion went wrong.
Interesting.
It was said of Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov that he knew only four words in English: "Yes" "No" and "Second Front".
Originally posted by no1marauderI forget who said that WWII was won with "British brains, American brawn and Russian blood", but it was probably a Russian.
My memory on this point appears to have been faulty; you are correct. http://www.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_5.html
It was said of Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov that he knew only four words in English: "Yes" "No" and "Second Front".
Originally posted by treetalkI remember that my grandfather said there was to be two invasions one to divert the Japanese , then the "real" assault.The first wave's casualties were estimated aboive 90% at around 250,000 alone.
Had that planned invasion gone ahead who knows how many casualties there would have been - one million sounds like a good one to justify the use of the bombs, though. (On the other hand, if the estimates were a lot lower - say 30-50 000, perhaps the nuke option became a little harder to justify ... I wonder if anyone in the US military back then had such lo ...[text shortened]... realise that if there was no need to drop the bombs ... there was also no need to invade Japan.
Originally posted by aspviper666That there was a plan to invade Japan is beyond question. That virtually every major US military commander thought it would not be necessary is also beyond a historical doubt.
http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/OperationDownfallThePlann.html
EDIT: Some of the quotes, including by Eisenhower, McArthur and Admiral Leahy are collected here: http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm
It is possible that the whole plan was made up as an excuse to nuke Japan.I have not dismissed nor ignored your points and the points of others.I do know that grand dad was convincing in his fear of dying in Japan.Grand dad was part of the occupational forces. They still had insurgents and pockets of resistance, even after the surrender.
Originally posted by no1marauderwh.... wh.... WHAT!?!? omg.
My memory on this point appears to have been faulty; you are correct. http://www.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_5.html
It was said of Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov that he knew only four words in English: "Yes" "No" and "Second Front".
"My memory on this point appears to have been faulty; you are correct."
the world is coming to an end. save yourselves before it's too late!!!
o yea.... and give that post a rec 😉
Originally posted by lioyankthat rushing sound you hear is the world spinning westward ....
wh.... wh.... WHAT!?!? omg.
"My memory on this point appears to have been faulty; you are correct."
the world is coming to an end. save yourselves before it's too late!!!
o yea.... and give that post a rec 😉
Step-by-step instructions for surviving the State of the Union
What you need:
A group of four taxpayers: one white guy wearing a suit, two people wearing
jeans -- one in a work shirt, the other in a dark shirt -- and one person
wearing rags. (Stitched-together washcloths are nice.) All four taxpayers
are grouped around a cocktail table within sight of the television.
Newspapers on floor in front of television.
One shot glass per person. Everyone brings their own and places it on the
table. Suit picks one first. Then Work Shirt. Then Dark Shirt. Suit takes
the last one as well, and Rags gets a Dixie Cup with the top scissored off.
5 bucks apiece, everybody antes.
One fondue pot with two packages of Li'l Smokies stewing in barbecue sauce
on table. Preferably a sauce from Texas. Surrounded by:
· 100 cocktail toothpicks. The kind with the little American
flags wrapped around the top.
· A large stash of beer. Rags gets the cheapest stuff you can
find, like Old Milwaukee Light; Suit gets to drink whatever import he asks
for; the jeans get to pick their favorite domestic brand, but they are
required to pay for all the beer and the Li'l Smokies.
· Rules of the Game.
1. Whenever George W uses the phrases: "national security," "tax relief,"
"activist judges," or "affordable health care," drink two shots of beer.
2. Whenever George W mentions the tragic events of 9/11, the last person to
grab a toothpick, stand, and salute must drink three shots of beer. If you
stab yourself in forehead with the toothpick, drink two more shots.
3. If George W actually says, "If Al Qaeda is calling you, we want to know
why." first person to finish a whole beer gets to toss Li'l Smokies at any
of the others until they finish their beer. Use the toothpicks.
4. If George W makes up a word like "strategerie" or "deteriorize," drink
four shots of beer.
5. If George W speaks of Hamas and repeats his earlier statement that "it's
good to see people are demanding honest leadership," the first person to
stop laughing gets to drink one shot of beer then pummel Suit with empty
shot glass. No head shots.
6. Whenever George W talks about bi-partisanship, the last person to grab
his throat in a choking motion has to eat 4 Li'l Smokies.
7. If either the Vice President Dick Cheney or First Lady Laura Bush are
caught napping, last person to sing "Wake Up Little Susie, Wake Up," has to
drink three shots of beer.
8. Predict the number of applause breaks. Person closest to correct number
may then force the other three to drink that number of shots of beer in
whatever ratio they wish.
9. Three shots of beer if he mentions New Orleans. Five shots of beer if he
mentions Brownie. Two full beers if he mentions Abramoff.
10. Every time Tom DeLay is shown in the audience, take turns throwing Li'l
Smokies at the TV. Suit sits out. First face hit doesn't have to drink two
shots of beer. Every time Hillary Clinton is shown in the audience, Suit
throws Li'l Smokies at the TV. If he hits her face, everyone else drinks
two shots of beer. Use the toothpicks.
11. Whenever George W quotes the Bible, last person to fall to their knees
and cry "Hallelujah!" drinks two shots of beer.
12. Whenever George W smirks during a standing ovation, take turns drinking
shots of beer until the audience sits down. Do it double time if his
shoulders shake with silent laughter.
EXTRAS:
Whoever can correctly identify in advance the person giving the Democratic
Response doesn't have to watch it.
Suit gets to kick Rags hard, once, if George W uses a heartfelt story of a
pulling yourself up by your bootstraps to illustrate a point. Twice if the
regulation of large cardboard boxes is mentioned as a security precaution.
Rags gets 15 seconds to kick the Suit if Bush reveals the subject of the
anecdote is in the audience. 30 seconds if he or she is sitting next to
Harriet Miers. 1 full minute if she's sitting next to an astronaut.
Suit takes home $20.
Leftover beer, Li'l Smokies and fondue pot go home with Rags.