Originally posted by RetrovirusThat you said on the 9th May.
Thanks. I'll have to read it first.
And today you said: "As I said, I'm in my tests period right now, and barely has enough time to answer the questions in it as it is. I'll get on that.
And yet, since you said "I'll have to read it first", and even with all your beastly tests, and all, you somehow managed to post 45 (forty five) times on the Forum in the meantime.
Would I be forgiven for thinking you are wriggling? ...which is a polite way of asking you if you are, perhaps, a dishonest, partisan, propagandist who knows a stench from your team's bench when he smells one? And so just lies low, like The Dude 84?
Originally posted by Redmike"The legendary Israeli soldier, Amos Yarkoni, first commander of the Shaked Reconnaissance Battalion in the Givati Brigade, was a Bedouin (born Abd el-Majid Hidr). Despite their uniquely high numbers in the Israeli Defense Forces over the decades, the percentage of Bedouin in the army fell drastically after October 2000. It is believed that reduced willingness to join the IDF is due to the fact that despite their service in the army over half are denied access to water, electricity, and trash pickup, and are denied the right to build roads to make schools and hospitals accessible. Furthermore, quite commonly, Bedouin soldiers from unrecognized villages return home after reserve duty to find their homes demolished." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Bedouins
I'm guessing the points in the other thread about discrimination against non-Jewish people in israel will go unanswered too.
http://bustan.org/2006/08/current_strategy_for_negev_development.html
Originally posted by smw6869Easy to call a draw in a war.....Just stop killing each other!!!!!!!!1
Don't you think it's easier to call a draw in a debate forum than call a draw in a war that's been going on for 60 years, buddy?
GRANNY.
How hard is it to NOT kill someone?????????????????????????
Originally posted by uzlessDepends ... Once you've got going, it's hard to rein yourself in ... If you could get both sides to IMMEDIATELY STOP, maybe they'd listen ...
Easy to call a draw in a war.....Just stop killing each other!!!!!!!!1
How hard is it to NOT kill someone?????????????????????????
Originally posted by FMFMy test went fine, thanks for asking, my next one is on sunday, so you will have my response by the end of the day (GMT-2).
That you said on the 9th May.
And today you said: "[b]As I said, I'm in my tests period right now, and barely has enough time to answer the questions in it as it is. I'll get on that.
And yet, since you said "I'll have to read it first", and even with all your beastly tests, and all, you somehow managed to post 45 (forty five) times on the Forum ...[text shortened]... from your team's bench when he smells one? And so just lies low, like The Dude 84?[/b]
Originally posted by RetrovirusI didn't. I'm not the slightest bit concerned. You are a poster who dehumanizes a race of people with almost every word you type. And you try to intimidate people who disagree with you with accusations of anti-semitism directly, indirectly, insidiously. For me to be asking you about your tests would be far too cute. It would in some tiny way vindicate the absurdly partisan and offensive drivel you foist upon us day after day. Sorry to be so blunt. But for you to assume that you are automatically "among friends" or to falsely give you that impression, does nobody any favours.
My test want fine, thanks for asking(GMT-2).
Originally posted by FMFI think this guy's quite young and indoctrinated. But his viewpoint might also be considered and deliberate. Can't tell until he talks about the Negev Bedouin (the point I'd prefer him to focus on first). To summarily judge him before he gets a chance to respond does nobody any favours either.
But for you to assume that you are automatically "among friends" or to falsely give you that impression, does nobody any favours.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage (in anoter thread)
Bedouin Arabs with Israeli citizenship are being forced off out of villages they have lived in for generations because these villages are 'not recognised'.
“Our goal is to stop them from spreading out and to bring them into these towns,” [an Israeli] spokesperson said. “The land they are sitting on today is not their land. This is Israeli land.”
Clearly having Israeli citizenship does not an Israeli make.
http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=336413&area=/insight/insight__international/
To cut to the bottom line – this is not a black and white case, but, like most things, is drawn in grayscale.
Keeping that in mind, my opinion is that the Israeli government is clearly the dark-gray side in this story.
Some background about it:
Bedouins
The traditional Bedouin society is of nomadic to semi-nomadic character.
Because of the scarcity of fodder (for their herds) in the desert, some groups of Bedouins have to traverse vast distances in order to survive.
The Real-Estate situation in Israel
The registration of real-estate in the provinces that part of them will become the modern state of Israel begins with the implementation of the Meğelle code of laws, by the Ottoman Empire. In accordance with the new code, the Ottomans decreed that land owners must register their land, or else lose it (1858).
After it took over the land (1920), the British Mandate used the Ottoman registration, and it was later incorporated into the Torrens system of title registration that was implemented by the British mandate (1928). This registry, was, in turn, used by the State of Israel (1948).
{An anecdote: We actually still use the word Tabu, the Arabian form of the word Tapu (the Turkish name of the registry), as the unofficial yet most used name for our current land registry}
In 1858, the local Bedouins were nomadic and didn’t register any real estate; from that time on, real estate must be bought ; or, in the case of government land (or the so called “Arad Miri” lands in the old Ottoman system), construction must first be authorized.
Now, the traditional Bedouin way of life suffered greatly in the modern age:
- Because of borders, herding was impaired; when once they could cross from the Negev to Sinai and back in search for fodder, now the Bedouins are limited to the Negev only (In the case of the Israeli Bedouins, of course – those who dwell in the Sinai desert cannot wander to the Negev… but the Sinai desert is much, much bigger, so I think it’s more of a problem for the Bedouins who dwell in the Negev. I might be wrong.)
- In the past, the Bedouins could only care less if the Ottomans called their land “state land”, as they (The Ottomans) had no use for it and did nothing with it.
Israel, on the other hand, utilizes the Negev for industry, settlement, and even agriculture… and that without counting natural reserves and the military use (training, outposts for patrolling our border with Egypt, ect.). Thus, even in the already small area of the Negev, much of the land cannot be used for herding.
Meanwhile, the way of life of “permanent dwellers” (or whatever you call non-nomadic people&hellip😉 has also changed. While in ancient times existence as a farmer was not that much luxurious than existence as a nomadic pastor, modern age has radically changed that.
I think these two factors can lead nomadic people to settle down. If a tribe moves its tents less and less, it is their own business, right? And then if they don’t not move them at all, still nobody else’s business, right? And what if then they begin building some houses around those tents, is it still their own business?
Well, in modern Israel you need authorization to do that (the last one), pay taxes for the land use (if it is not private land but one that belongs to the state)… that is the law for all citizens, not just Bedouins.
Try to just extend the balcony of your own home (say, in Tel Aviv) even a bit and the government will be over you like a ton of bricks and fine the hell out of you.
In the open areas of the Negev fewer inspectors roam the land than in Tel Aviv, but it doesn’t make building without certificates less illegal.
Now, having said that, I’m saying that while the Israeli government didn’t do anything wrong, it almost did nothing right either (about this situation, that is) and it is its duty ! that’s why we have a government for – to take care of it citizens, to use the laws for their benefit, not restrict them by adhering to the letter of the law!
In short – I believe that the Israeli government is not guilty of action ; rather it is guilty of inaction .
What would I do as the Israeli government? I will authorize and recognize all current Bedouin settlements (that is, the ones that Israel does not recognizes today – I’m not speaking of the Bedouin towns that the state founded, and of course recognizes) and all the buildings within them, but will require that any further modification and/or construction will be made with the needed certificates – the way it is for all citizens, wherever they live.
Of course, once I recognize all the Bedouin settlements, I’ll connect them to the entire infrastructure that legal settlements get.
Beyond that, I’ll commission a committee for the construction of more Bedouin settlements.
What would I do as the Bedouins? Use whatever tools I have in the democratic system to get it done. I would attempt to increase the Israeli public awareness to the problem, maybe thought demonstrations, but without alienating them. With the Bedouins own population they can have about two sits in the Parliament (out of 120) ; with a bit of support from other citizens, they can have a much bigger share of the Knesset. Than, I’ll use coalitional agreements to vote in the decision I wrote above (in the “what would I do as the Israeli government” paragraph).
Originally posted by uzlessThat wouldn't be a draw. One side will almost certainly remain worse of than the other, and quite likely in this case, one side would continue to cause problems for the other even if they are not killing them.
Easy to call a draw in a war.....Just stop killing each other!!!!!!!!1
How hard is it to NOT kill someone?????????????????????????
Also it is likely that neither will be happy as neither will have actually achieved their main objectives - so we could say both sides are loosers rather than a draw.
Originally posted by RetrovirusIt's a relief to hear this, Retrovirus. There was me thinking that this was a case of the government not taking care of it citizens in an equitable way. It is instead an example of the State not interfering in the lives of citizens in a way that might have ran the risk of ruling in the non-Jewish Israelis' favour. Guilty of that, which is nothing. But not guilty of 'something'. All in all, according to the algebra of crypto-racist politics, two sides of the equation cancel out and you're left with 'these people now live where these people live', and people saying I’m saying that while the Israeli government didn’t do anything wrong, it almost did nothing right either. We'll never really know what might have happened if the Bedouins had handled the situation better. Maybe they are to blame (and not blame too). Thanks, you've cleared it up.
Now, having said that, I’m saying that while the Israeli government didn’t do anything wrong, [b] it almost did nothing right either (about this situation, that is) and it is its duty ! that’s why we have a government for – to take care of it citizens, to use the laws for their benefit, not restrict them by adhering to the letter of the law! [.. ...[text shortened]... raeli government is[b] not guilty of action ; rather it is guilty of inaction [/b][/b]
Originally posted by RetrovirusIf I'm reading you correctly, the Israeli government has taken great pains to act within the letter of the law while treating the Bedouin as a de facto nuisance that needs to be managed away. They are also considered a biological threat, viz. statements about their breeding rates. This bespeaks a disturbingly instrumental inhumanity on the part of the government: quite simply, people are not treated as people, but as 'problems'. I don't think I need to point out where we've heard that rhetoric before, not to mention the obsession with breeding.
[b] In short – I believe that the Israeli government is not guilty of action ; rather it is guilty of inaction .[/b]
It's a sheer historical irony to me that the Bedouin are a living link with the past, in that their lifestyle, only recently defunct, was very similar to that of Abraham (not to mention their capacity to breed: "as many as there stars in the sky ... "😉. Yet the official Israeli view is that they must be 'civilised' out of existence.
I do think that bulldozing mosques and houses is action, rather than inaction. Yet you've taken a first step towards acknowledging the inhumanity of your state. Unfortunately, the view that 'Palestine didn't exist', which seems to reflect the general public opinion, is not a great basis on which to treat other people as people.
Let me be the first to admit that Israel is far from unique in having inhumane policies. And citizens are capable of being as inhumane as any state apparatus. South Africa is currently undergoing a wave of xenophobic violence which makes me sick with fear and rage ... As always, leaders must stand up and be counted. Jacob Zuma at least recognises the problem. Does Ehud Olmert understand what it is to be human?