08 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasTo be fair, the war continues. The US had no desire for this war, rather, they just kinda stepped in a big pile of poo.
But the talibans refused to hand him over. Therefore USA went into Afganistan to get rid of the talibans. They are still there, aren't they? And now the are friends with USA, and with the aid of USA getting its former poser back.
USA lost the war. Talibans won.
So to "win" a war, what is one to do? Isn't it total erradication? If so, neither side has won the war, rather, one side has merely won a battle.
The Taliban will continue to try and undermine the US and the US likewise against the Taliban no matter what Joe Bite me says. My only position is that to engage in these costly political wars is a waste of time. If the US is attacked then go after the responsible parties and pull out or completely erradicate them like they did Nazi Germany. Stop trying to persuade the world that you are trying to spread democracy and keep the world safe from WMD's and 'nation build".
09 Jan 12
Originally posted by whodeyTo win a war is to define its goal, and then to succeed to achive the goal. That's it.
To be fair, the war continues. The US had no desire for this war, rather, they just kinda stepped in a big pile of poo.
So to "win" a war, what is one to do? Isn't it total erradication? If so, neither side has won the war, rather, one side has merely won a battle.
The Taliban will continue to try and undermine the US and the US likewise against the ...[text shortened]... you are trying to spread democracy and keep the world safe from WMD's and 'nation build".
When USA asked kindly the talibans to hand over bin Ladin, and the talibans refused USA said that if you don't hand over bin Ladin then we will go in with a military force take bin Ladin by force and we will crusch the talibans to nothing.
So USA defined very well the objective of the war, the goal was well defined.
(*) bin Ladin was not handed over by the talibans. (*) bin Ladin wasn't found in Afganistan. Talibans got problems, (*) but are getting their powers back. (*) With the aid of USA. Conclusions: Looks like a major failure to me.
If my autoreairman said the same thing "Well, Fabian, we did a really good job with you car, we succeeded to 80%, however, the car doesn't run, any more, ever, but you see the cachier over there. Have a good day, and welcome back!" I would complain.
If the nuclear powerplant technisian said the same thing "Oh, we did a damn good job, we have 80% of the radioactive cecium still within the poser plant, the rest I don't know, so it was a total success her in Fukishima!" I would more than raise my eyey browse.
If the neonatal nurse said "We want a raise, because 80% of the new borns are still alive!", well...
Why to USA think they won the war? Because 80% of the talibans were gone. But they are still there. The losers, the real losers, however, are the population of Afganistan. The ones who thought that the talibans would be gone altogether, with the aid of USA. Now the talibans will regain its power, with the aid of USA.
09 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasYes, the US loses by default because now it's literally impossible for them to hand over bin laden.
But the talibans refused to hand him over. Therefore USA went into Afganistan to get rid of the talibans. They are still there, aren't they? And now the are friends with USA, and with the aid of USA getting its former poser back.
USA lost the war. Talibans won.
Bin Laden is dead. Both al-Qaeda and the Taliban are mere shadows of what they once were. But all of that is irrelevant, because (as you admitted) the objective was take out Bin Laden and al-Qaeda.
The President has a responsibility to protect this country from attack and the Taliban are not a threat to our borders.
09 Jan 12
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperOnly future will tell if the talbians are a threat or not. I think yes, you think it doesn't matter because it's not 'our' business anymore.
Yes, the US loses by default because now it's literally impossible for them to hand over bin laden.
Bin Laden is dead. Both al-Qaeda and the Taliban are mere shadows of what they once were. But all of that is irrelevant, because (as you admitted) the objective was take out Bin Laden and al-Qaeda.
The President has a responsibility to protect this country from attack and the Taliban are not a threat to our borders.
I say, yes USA lost the war. You say it doesn't matter because it's not 'our' business anymore.
I say al Quaida are lurking out there. They have big financiers, and the talibans don't have much money anymore. There is a danger that the talibans take al Quaida under their wings again, the terrorism will once agin target USA. And who will then be there with his long face?
Much of the opium entering USA comes from Afganistan with the aid of the talibans. Something to think about.
09 Jan 12
Originally posted by FabianFnasTo win a war you must vanquish the enemy. I could care less what goals you had in mind, otherwise, the enemy continues to fight.
[b]To win a war is to define its goal, and then to succeed to achive the goal. That's it.
If you look at other "goals" in other wars, we see North Korea. Sure, they kept the communists out of South Korea, so put a big old check beside the mission accomplished list. However, look at what the US did. They did not vanquish North Korea and now they have nukes and the US has had troops there for well over half a century with no end in sight. in fact, the US has put itself right in the middle of a nuclear showdown. What did not kill North Korea, made them stronger. You can even see this in Vietnam. The Veitnamese army is far more powerful now than they were before the US enetered a conflict with them.
09 Jan 12
Originally posted by whodeyI don't know what the objective was in the Korea war. I wasn't along those days. The Koreas is still divided. The war is not over, they just have a faible cease-fire. Was that part of the objective for the war? I don't know.
To win a war you must vanquish the enemy. I could care less what goals you had in mind, otherwise, the enemy continues to fight.
If you look at other "goals" in other wars, we see North Korea. Sure, they kept the communists out of South Korea, so put a big old check beside the mission accomplished list. However, look at what the US did. They did not v ...[text shortened]... mese army is far more powerful now than they were before the US enetered a conflict with them.
And USA lost their war in Vietnam.
What you care less or not, is irrelevant. If you just state your opinion, fine. Because it's not facts.
The questions are:
Are there still talibans in Afganistan? Yes.
Are they gaining power? Yes.
Are USA their friends? Yes.
Then: Yes, the talibans won the war.
09 Jan 12
Originally posted by FabianFnasNo, that's not what said at all.
Only future will tell if the talbians are a threat or not. I think yes, you think it doesn't matter because it's not 'our' business anymore.
I say, yes USA lost the war. You say it doesn't matter because it's not 'our' business anymore.
I say al Quaida are lurking out there. They have big financiers, and the talibans don't have much money anymore. T ...[text shortened]... ering USA comes from Afganistan with the aid of the talibans. Something to think about.
Osama Bin Laden and his operatives were the primary objective. The Taliban ruled 95% of Afghanistan and al-Qaeda operated and functioned along side them with impunity. We severely diminished both, even if there are still some remaining. Bin Laden has been killed.
If between the US, Hamid Karzai and the Taliban some type of agreement can be met then US interests have been met.
Could it go right back to the way it was before? I highly doubt it, but then I'm not fortune teller so maybe you'll have your wish.
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperLet's dig up the newspapers from the time prior to the of war and the threats to the talibans and get the truth out of it. Let's also exclude the propaganda, and just see what really was said. Then we come somewhere.
No, that's not what said at all.
Osama Bin Laden and his operatives were the primary objective. The Taliban ruled 95% of Afghanistan and al-Qaeda operated and functioned along side them with impunity. We severely diminished both, even if there are still some remaining. Bin Laden has been killed.
If between the US, Hamid Karzai and the Talib ...[text shortened]... as before? I highly doubt it, but then I'm not fortune teller so maybe you'll have your wish.
It is usually said that it is the winners who (re-)write the history. It would be interesting to see some taliban newspapers from the time, and from today showing their view what happened, and what is happening now, when USA finaly USA collaborates with the talibans.
10 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasI really don't care what Bush wanted, nor do I care what you feel inclined to write on your imaginary scoreboard. Bush is no longer the President. If (and it's certainly a huge IF) Hamid Karzai and the US can come to an arrangement that is agreeable to the new Government of Afghanistan, and also protects US interests by disallowing cooperation with international terrorists, then that's a win win.
Let's dig up the newspapers from the time prior to the of war and the threats to the talibans and get the truth out of it. Let's also exclude the propaganda, and just see what really was said. Then we come somewhere.
It is usually said that it is the winners who (re-)write the history. It would be interesting to see some taliban newspapers from the tim ...[text shortened]... what happened, and what is happening now, when USA finaly USA collaborates with the talibans.
I would be very happy because US interests will have been met. And you will be happy because you'll get to snub your nose at the US based on how you chose to define "winning."
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperWhat you care about or not care about makes no different what Bush did put up as an objective to go into Afganistan.
I really don't care what Bush wanted, nor do I care what you feel inclined to write on your imaginary scoreboard. Bush is no longer the President. If (and it's certainly a huge IF) Hamid Karzai and the US can come to an arrangement that is agreeable to the new Government of Afghanistan, and also protects US interests by disallowing cooperation with ...[text shortened]... because you'll get to snub your nose at the US based on how you chose to define "winning."
If you don't care about it, then I am more well informed than you, because I care about what really happened.
And this is my last posting in this matter in this thread. Have the last word if you want. I don't care.
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou believe the US wins by giving our former President what he wanted.
What you care about or not care about makes no different what Bush did put up as an objective to go into Afganistan.
If you don't care about it, then I am more well informed than you, because I care about what really happened.
And this is my last posting in this matter in this thread. Have the last word if you want. I don't care.
I believe the US wins by protecting US interests.
Fair enough.
