Originally posted by Bad wolfSuch as?
But I want reform.
What do you mean by wanting reform? Of the concept of an EU? Of the institutions of the EU? Of the functioning of those institutions?
It's really vague and pointless to point at some problems and claim for 'reform', that shimmering ghost that appears to solve everything.
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Originally posted by PalynkaI think we should create a codified EU constitution outlining all the powers the EU has.
Such as?
What do you mean by wanting reform? Of the concept of an EU? Of the institutions of the EU? Of the functioning of those institutions?
It's really vague and pointless to point at some problems and claim for 'reform', that shimmering ghost that appears to solve everything.
Perhaps the EU constitution that was voted down by the Dutch and the French should be revived in some form.
10 REASONS
WHY BRITAIN SHOULD LEAVE
THE EUROPEAN UNION...
1. To end the drain on the country's finances.
The government puts the net 'contribution' cost of our EU membership (1999) at £8.5 billion (equal to almost 4p of income tax) and the current estimates put it at £11 billion. The pro-EU Institute of Directors calculated it as more than double - and rising. Indirect costs - complying with regulations, loss of earnings from farming, fishing, etc., raise the overall cost still further.
Withdrawal from the EU would yield Britain a £25 billion Independence Dividend.
2. So that we can restore the full authority of Westminster, where the MPs we elect defend our interests, rather than accept rule from Brussels by bureaucrats we neither vote in nor have power to dismiss.
Four out of five of our laws now come direct from the EU. Because EU officials and Commissioners are specifically required NOT to take account of the interests of their own country, such legislation may disregard Britain's national interest!
Creating Regional Assemblies for each of Britain's Euro-Regions will cause a massive expansion in bureaucracy and administration costs and drive further wedges between Westminster, County & District Councils and the voters.
3. So that we can pursue 'British' policies for agriculture and fishing, based on optimal self sufficiency and the maximisation of our natural resources.
EU 'Common' Policies for fishing & farming are expensive, wasteful, cruel, immoral as well as harmful to the environment and the developing world. British farmers are weighed down by bureaucracy and form filling and constrained by inappropriate quotas. Their 'green pound' incomes are determined by the value of sterling on the world's foreign exchanges – even if they never export!
4. The EU Single Market, with its fanciful 'level playing field' and a mass of costly regulations, sets member state against member state - whilst preventing each from capitalising on its own individual strengths.
The City of London will be (deliberately) weakened by 'financial services' legislation carried by the votes of EU countries with no comparable financial sectors of their own. Similarly, our position - unique within the EU - as a world leader in the art & antiques trades, is threatened by 'harmonised' VAT.
5. Staying in the EU will mean eventually having to join the euro. As a result, control of the economy will pass to the European Central Bank, which is required to treat the entire EU area as one economy.
Although exporters complain about the "strong" pound (they really mean the weak euro), the slightest weakening of sterling makes everyone nervous about inflation.
When EU 'harmonisation' has raised costs and taxes here to the levels of those in France and Germany, what businesses will come and set up - or remain - here?
6. The EU is yesterday's idea. Unlike the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), it is not a free trade zone but a protectionist Customs union.
Even small, non-EU countries trade with the EU on better terms than those of Britain – but without the cost and loss of self-government EU membership entails. EU regulations impose extra costs on every business in the country – including the 90% that never export and those that export only to non-EU markets.
Ongoing EU trade disputes with America, and Brussels' reluctance to accept WTO rulings that don't go in its favour, harm British exporters.
7. The EU is dominated by France and Germany. For forty years, their heads of government have been meeting twice yearly to set their common agenda.
EU enlargement will reduce Britain's voting rights from the present 15% to less than 10%. It is dangerous and naive to think we have any real influence – let alone be able to defend our vital interests against France's unbridled hostility to America and the Anglo-Saxon 'model'.
8. The EU will oblige Britain to abandon the centuries old democratic and legal systems that have been embraced by countries throughout the world.
Our legal system will be turned upside down as we go over to the Napoleonic code system: we will be deemed guilty until proved innocent, liable to virtually unlimited detention without charge (in the absence of habeas corpus) and lose the right to trial by jury. The banning of imperial measures is designed to deny British companies any 'natural' advantage when quoting for American contracts.
9. In order to retain full control over our borders and armed forces.
Jurisdiction over who may enter and remain in Britain must be the sole preserve of our Westminster parliament.
Britain's armed services are for defending Britain's interests, not for allowing the French to indulge their long-standing obstructive hostility to America and Nato.
10. So that we do not bind and betray future generations.
Being in the EU means that all our national resources - gold reserves, North Sea Gas & Oil, fish stocks – will have to be placed at the disposal of the EU. The debts of Continental pension funds will become the debts of our children - who may not even be assured pensions of their own. The 'acquis communautaire' (= ratchet) process ensures that EU legislation is unlikely ever to be repealed or amended.
Originally posted by Bad wolfBut what do you think this constitution should contain? I'm staunchly pro-European Union, but I prefer a non-federal model like the one we have now were countries can join in some treaties and opt out for others (UK and the Eurozone, for example).
I think we should create a codified EU constitution outlining all the powers the EU has.
Perhaps the EU constitution that was voted down by the Dutch and the French should be revived in some form.
If some sort of federal government has power to impose some countries to join in on policies they don't want to, I don't think it's worth it and I don't think that's what the EU is all about or what people want. I prefer cooperation using the EU institutions more than governance under a EU government.
Originally posted by colproSome of these points may or may not be true, I don't really know, particularly the point about EU funding.
10 REASONS
WHY BRITAIN SHOULD LEAVE
THE EUROPEAN UNION...
1. To end the drain on the country's finances.
The government puts the net 'contribution' cost of our EU membership (1999) at £8.5 billion (equal to almost 4p of income tax) and the current estimates put it at £11 billion. The pro-EU Institute of Directors calculated it as more than double - ...[text shortened]... at EU legislation is unlikely ever to be repealed or amended.
However, this post suggests that the EU is "designed" to crippple the United Kingdom which is not only a paranoid point of view but also arrogant.
France and Germany have the majority of influence in the EU because they don't have the British reluctance to change. They are actually driving the EU forward. They are supporting the idea. The UK could be just as powerful a member if it was a EU supporter rather than a country constantly trying to drag the EU down.
Furthermore, most of the points you raise appear to suggest that Britain, having decided to join a club, should actually not have to compromise at all and should be able to behave exactly as if it hadn't joined and be able to sulk if the other members want to achieve something. that it doesn't
If more countries join the EU, of course Britain's vote is less and that's how it should be unless you feel Britain should have a louder voice than everyone else.
"The EU is yesderday's idea"!! So is the wheel. This isn't an argument.
Whether the UK, being in the EU is good for it, or the EU for that matter is a debate worthy of serious consideration but this tired old clap trap just exposes the tired old British mentality of empire.
Have a serious debate about it, the population of the UK deserve that. Oh and by the way, spend some time living in a European country and you might start to see just how backward the UK is these days.
Originally posted by WheelyBut it appears that some Scandinavian countries have benefitted by not joining the EU. So is that the reason for your assertion that the UK appears to be 'backward'; hamstrung by EU redtape?
Some of these points may or may not be true, I don't really know, particularly the point about EU funding.
However, this post suggests that the EU is "designed" to crippple the United Kingdom which is not only a paranoid point of view but also arrogant.
France and Germany have the majority of influence in the EU because they don't have the British reluc ...[text shortened]... European country and you might start to see just how backward the UK is these days.
Originally posted by Bad wolfyeah, i have a comment on this one: the eu should get back into its pram, ie revert to being the eec, - the european economic community. we dont want a super state, thats why the draft european constitution was trashed following the french referendum on the subject and it will be trashed by any uk referendum on the subject. angela merkel wants to bring it back, but now the uk home office minister has delared it a "dead parrot".
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bM2Ql3wOGcU&mode=related&search=
Hmm, any thoughts?
(hope you people out there know the reference is to that classic monty python sketch of the same name 😀 )
Originally posted by eamon oIts not dead its just pining?
yeah, i have a comment on this one: the eu should get back into its pram, ie revert to being the eec, - the european economic community. we dont want a super state, thats why the draft european constitution was trashed following the french referendum on the subject and it will be trashed by any uk referendum on the subject. angela merkel wants to bring it ...[text shortened]... le out there know the reference is to that classic monty python sketch of the same name 😀 )
Pining?
Yes its pining for the fjords!
Originally posted by planck3Only Norway hasn't joined the EU, the rest of the scandinavian countries have joined.
But it appears that some Scandinavian countries have benefitted by not joining the EU. So is that the reason for your assertion that the UK appears to be 'backward'; hamstrung by EU redtape?
If Norway has benefitted by staying out is pretty much debatable, especially considering they already signed some of its treaties (Schengen, for example). What does Norway gain by being a passive bystander of such agreements and have no voice in their design?
Originally posted by colproI hate it when people post (or copy) 10 points that really are 4.
10 REASONS
WHY BRITAIN SHOULD LEAVE
THE EUROPEAN UNION...
1. To end the drain on the country's finances.
The government puts the net 'contribution' cost of our EU membership (1999) at £8.5 billion (equal to almost 4p of income tax) and the current estimates put it at £11 billion. The pro-EU Institute of Directors calculated it as more than double - ...[text shortened]... at EU legislation is unlikely ever to be repealed or amended.
So to help those with reading and attention span difficulties I have shortened the list.
I want Britain to Leave the EU because:
1. I hate France
2. Britain is so good it never needs to change EVER
3. All foreigners are jealous of Britain and want to destroy it or invade
4. I hate France
Originally posted by petrosianpupilHating France is a good point though.
I hate it when people post (or copy) 10 points that really are 4.
So to help those with reading and attention span difficulties I have shortened the list.
I want Britain to Leave the EU because:
1. I hate France
2. Britain is so good it never needs to change EVER
3. All foreigners are jealous of Britain and want to destroy it or invade
4. I hate France