Originally posted by PawnokeyholeYup.
Citing one misuse of taxes does not justify another. Saying that taxes *have* been used to pay for something indefensible doesn't mean it *is* okay to use them to pay for something else that's indefensible
Are you saying that there is some sort of equivalence between paying taxes to finance a neurosurgical team to stitch your head back together (af ...[text shortened]... wish to better themselves by laearning and contribute to the economic vitality of the state?
Originally posted by shavixmirI still have to admit a reluctant admiration for your liberatarianism.
No. I totally disagree with you. I've thought it over a million times.
I usually do wear a seat-belt. But, it is my choice!
As for taxes, should my taxes pay your kids' education? Mr. Bush's war on terrorism? The rail-bosses golden hand-shake?
Only one of the three is to my liking and it certainly ain't no war or golden-handshake.
So, you evidently think that choice is good even when it lets people do bad things. If so, why?
If people *only* did bad things when they had the choice, you would probably concede that choice served no good. And if they only did good things, then there would of course be no problem. The tricky bit is that where there is a choice people generally do a mixture of good and bad things. So where should the cutoff point be before the choice should be taken away? This is the key issue on which conservatives and liberals differ. If you think choice is valuable in itelf, then you would say that even if people did good things less than 50% of the time then the choice should still be allowed.
But, again, why is choice good if it results in more evil than good?
Originally posted by elvendreamgirlOriginally posted by elvendreamgirl
I ALWAYS wear my seat belt! I have since I was a small child. BUT! one day on the way to school I was pulled over. I had no idea why. I wasn't speeding, I was obeying all the laws. Then the officer said "No seat belt". I was so upset. The ONE time in my life I don't wear a seat belt, I get caught. I put the ticket in my purse and promptly f ...[text shortened]... ning a seat belt violation. meanwhile, my town is known for giving murderers probation........
meanwhile, my town is known for giving murderers probation........
Your "town?" If you mean "town" in the way I usually think of "town" (like 500 - 20000 people) , then I think you should get out of "town!"
How many murders occur there that your "town" can get such an ill reputation?
Come on, Shavix. Is taking 3 seconds of your time to put on a seat belt that you barely notice on more important to you than not eating a windshield sammich if you get into a wreck? Come on man, it's only 3 seconds. 3 seconds and you are alot less likely to be seen sliding across the highway on your chin.
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeYou have to define what good and bad is.
I still have to admit a reluctant admiration for your liberatarianism.
So, you evidently think that choice is good even when it lets people do bad things. If so, why?
If people *only* did bad things when they had the choice, you would probably concede that choice served no good. And if they only did good things, then there would of course be no p ...[text shortened]... should still be allowed.
But, again, why is choice good if it results in more evil than good?
The way I see it, is that unless I'm hurting others or others are hurting me, there's not much more which is bad.
Take soft drugs or crash helmets or abortions or masturbation. As long as you're not hurting anybody else...who should give a damn?
I'll even contest speeding (for there's ample research proving that speed isn't what kills, but people not looking in their mirrors which DOES kill), but seatbelts? I have only myself to hurt by not wearing one.
Obviously there is family and such matters, but if I choose, then it's really none of their business. I'm only seriously harming myself.
Originally posted by Alpha10I can remember not wearing my seatbelt 5 times in the last 160.000 km's I've driven.
Come on, Shavix. Is taking 3 seconds of your time to put on a seat belt that you barely notice on more important to you than not eating a windshield sammich if you get into a wreck? Come on man, it's only 3 seconds. 3 seconds and you are alot less likely to be seen sliding across the highway on your chin.
Originally posted by shavixmirNo! People on bikes need helmets, parachutes, and ejector seats. If they impact they get launched 100's of feet into the air... and parachute safely to earth.
So you want people on motorbikes wearing seatbelts as well?
Now we just need to figure out what to do with the bike.
P-
Originally posted by shavixmirThere's absolutely nothing wrong with the law itself, not even from a libertarian point of view (or there shouldn't be).
Here I sit, bowed over my computer like Marlon Brando was crouched over what-ever he was crouching over in Apocolypse now.
Sweat's dripping off my forehead, due to the heat and my eyes are dancing wildly as I comprehend my dilemma. L ...[text shortened]... lcano (or timebomb, or whatever).
Either way, I'm fucked.
The law is there for insurance purposes, though I'm sure the emrgency services would prefer not to have to clean up the mess and the doctors dont want to deal with another idiot who forgot to put their seatbelt on, I sincerely doubt that it is that much of an issue for them.
From the insurance companies point of view, it's a very big deal. They might either have to pay tens of thousands of pounds OR they can quite rightly and legally say you have no claim. If seatbelt regulation was not a requirement by law, that would make it harder for the insurance companies to provide motor insurance, certainly premiums would go up...
So removing the law would be placing individual freedom over commercial freedom, right? Nope, that's also wrong...
Your right to drive a car is dependant upon you commiting yourself to safe driving and consideration for others. Part of that involves getting insurance, if insurance companies aren't able to encourage safe driving and consideration from the driver then the insurance companies will not remain in business or will be forced to drive up prices resulting in less people being able to afford to drive.
The seatbelt regulation is one method by which they do that. Without it your individual freedom to drive a car is beign threatened as you might not be able to get insurance to drive.
However, upto a certain point it's perfectly reasonable to complain about the fine. It's quite likely the police are using it as a money-making excercise, which is wrong.
MÅ¥HÅRM
One situation that is rarely mentioned when discussing seat belts is that a belt will keep the driver anchored where he belongs, which is in the driver's seat, where the controls are.
This just might be important if your vehicle goes into a spin or slide on slippery roads. If a belt keeps you in that spot instead of allowing you to be slung into the passenger side, you might be able to regain control of your vehicle and avoid having it plaster itself into another vehicle, etc.
something to think about.
Marc
To the original poster: I feel your pain. And I admire your attempted fight against a law you feel is unjust. I've fought some of these battles myself. I've won some, I've lost some. At the end of it all I'm not quite sure it was ever worth it, but at the time it certainly was.
As for your specific fight, there's an old saying; "you can't fight city hall". Now I don't believe that. Especially in America. But I do think fighting city hall by yourself is a disaster. I've learned the hard way. The key is getting more voices (and money) on your side. That's how laws get changed.
In the end you did the right thing. The powers that be would have made your life miserable over one little seat belt ticket. They honestly can ruin you financially over something as trivial as that. All it requires is for you to keep doing what you were doing. Again, I'm on your side here. I know and understand why you want to fight that law. But you can't fight it alone. The court system (judicial system) will ruin you if you do.
Originally posted by mwmillerForget specifics, you dont need them.
One situation that is rarely mentioned when discussing seat belts is that a belt will keep the driver anchored where he belongs, which is in the driver's seat, where the controls are.
This just might be important if your vehicle goes into a spin or slide on slippery roads. If a belt keeps you in that spot instead of allowing you to be slung into the p ...[text shortened]... and avoid having it plaster itself into another vehicle, etc.
something to think about.
Marc
If you are not safety conscious when it comes to your own well-being, how much can you honestly claim to be conscious of other people's safety?
MÅ¥HÅRM
I refuse to wear a seatbelt as it retards my driving,unless on a crowded, tailgating motorway. I also have about £700 worth of fines for similar offences,(no tax) which I refuse to pay through PRINCIPLES, and would find it difficult even after a lottery win(Yes, I will do my jail!) A couple of months ago I got a ticket for no seatbelt, off one of the most cocky, irritating,narrow minded FREAKS Northumbria police has ever spawned, and BELIEVE me they've spawned a few. Upon realising that he was going to issue me a ticket, as I always give them the benifit of the doubt, until they prove me right, I replied that there was worse people than me, and shouldn't he be doing some real crime fighting? There having been THREE murders in two years in my aera, the last one a shooting in a pub, of which the murderer previously got OFF with another shooting last year, of which there were SEVEN witnesses!!😠But thats another story.
So, seething with anger I asked him through gritted teeth "Did you enjoy giving me that ticket?" to which he vehemently replied "I enjoy doing my duty!" It was a toss up weather he was worth an assault charge. Two weeks later a friend told me that the same officer was a police volunteer who worked at a local supermarket, which explained a lot.
Originally posted by WHY AYEI fought the law, and the LAW WON!
I refuse to wear a seatbelt as it retards my driving,unless on a crowded, tailgating motorway. I also have about £700 worth of fines for similar offences,(no tax) which I refuse to pay through PRINCIPLES, and would find it difficult even after a lottery win(Yes, I will do my jail!) A couple of months ago I got a ticket for no seatbelt, off one of the most c ...[text shortened]... same officer was a police volunteer who worked at a local supermarket, which explained a lot.
P-
Originally posted by shavixmir
I got a fine for driving without a seatbelt last year. I refused to pay it.
The state is here to protect me from you and you from me, not me from myself.
Well they've upped the fine and upped it again and today the baillif was at my door and handed me a piece of paper. Either I pay up now or they will take away my drivers license, take away my car and/or lock me up.
Have you ever been threatened in this fashion before? I'm well pissed off.
Or I pay up and have no more hassles.
But along with no more hassles, no more self-esteem, no more moral convictions and I'll be left with a boiling humiliation which will turn me into a ticking vulcano (or timebomb, or whatever).
Either way, I'm fucked.
Shav, you gotta stand up to these guys. Its just another politician like Blair and Bush trying to get your money. They money you pay for your fine, will probably be used to throw a lavish party and snort all your drugs away.
Make a stand. They won't really take your license away. You not paying it, means you'll just get more respect. You are the man, Shav is the man, nothing can stop him.
Remember braveheart and how he faught the english, well this is your turn.. fight the english.
Originally posted by WHY AYEWhat did he do wrong?
I refuse to wear a seatbelt as it retards my driving,unless on a crowded, tailgating motorway. I also have about £700 worth of fines for similar offences,(no tax) which I refuse to pay through PRINCIPLES, and would find it difficult even after a lottery win(Yes, I will do my jail!) A couple of months ago I got a ticket for no seatbelt, off one of the most c ...[text shortened]... same officer was a police volunteer who worked at a local supermarket, which explained a lot.
Sounds like he was just doing his job, as he said.