Originally posted by @joe-shmoSecond of three posts
The data I presented wasn't limited to murders. It runs the full gambit of offenses that can lead to incarceration ( you can download the tables in excel yourself and provide a counter analysis if you like, but I don't expect you to)
I was using the most heinous crime type as an example of why tensions "may" be high between police and black communities ...[text shortened]... you'd like?
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43
Even Worse! If that is possible. You do realise that the tables you referred me to are not convictions, they are arrests!! The tables analyse arrests and the reason given for arrest.
Do I even need to start explaining why you cannot make the claims you do on the back of arrest statistics?? Really?? Did you learn nothing from the Arpaio example????
If you selectively arrest Black people and not White people, then analyse the reasons for arrest in terms of criminal categories, the statistics are not going to look too bad for White people, are they??
You are such a fkg racist fool
Originally posted by @joe-shmoThird of three posts
The data I presented wasn't limited to murders. It runs the full gambit of offenses that can lead to incarceration ( you can download the tables in excel yourself and provide a counter analysis if you like, but I don't expect you to)
I was using the most heinous crime type as an example of why tensions "may" be high between police and black communities ...[text shortened]... you'd like?
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43
I was using the most heinous crime type as an example of why tensions "may" be high between police and black communities. And why they "may" be incarcerated at a rate of 5:1 as you mention.
Curiously enough, researchers have asked why violence and murder are more likely in some environments than others, and concluded it is because tensions are excessively high in those environments. People are more violent under stress and the violence more likely to escalate out of control.
You need not agree and I can't be bothered digging out the source. What matters is to notice that the same evidence can often support conflicting opinions about cause and effect. Do people shoot because they are cornered or are people cornered because they are likely to shoot? Does heavy handed, aggressive policing incite the very violence it claims to be policing?
you can download the tables in excel yourself and provide a counter analysis if you like, but I don't expect you to
So now you want to set up as an independent expert on the basis of your ability to work with a spreadsheet? I am afraid that really is not the critical skill you need when approaching social statistics. Sadly, it is like a mirror: when an idiot looks in don't expect a genius to look out. When a racist looks in don't expect a social scientist to look out.
You see what you want to see and never understand why everyone else sees something different. As a racist, you see evidence to support your racism but it is not valid evidence.
An idiot with a spreadsheet is an idiot. When I was managing, I was driven crazy by half qualified accountants with their fkg spreadsheets. The accountants I trusted most could put a statement together with a pencil (always a pencil, never a pen) and paper.
28 Aug 17
Originally posted by @finneganI think the number one conclusion from the data is that certain groups commit more crimes. When we bury this fact we cannot intelligently discuss the problem.
There are lots of ways to demonstrate racism in sentencing. In 2010, in the USA, the chances of being in prison were 450 per 100,000 if your were White, 831 per 100,000 if you were Hispanic, 2,306 if you were Black.
The statistics alone should make you question what is happening. They are fkg astonishing.
Looking through Obama's pardons, take t ...[text shortened]... innocent Americans.
If you cannot see the difference, that reflects on you very badly indeed.
Originally posted by @quackquackYes it would be nice to entertain the delusion that the US prison system and its justice system generally does what it does out of a disinterested desire to uphold the laws of the land. That disingenuous belief is not sustainable in any intelligent discussion.
I think the number one conclusion from the data is that certain groups commit more crimes. When we bury this fact we cannot intelligently discuss the problem.
Actually, all the data presented by @joe-shmo tells us, for example, is who the FBI record as being arrested and for what alleged offence. It takes a long long stretch of imagination to see this as a valid census of law breaking in American society. Sadly, that is also before we ask about the nature of those laws, their function in protecting the interests of property, their differential impact on various communities in US society. Besides, as the Sheriff Arpeio case illustrates so well, it is not even true that the US Justice system operates within the law; much of what goes on is demonstrably illegal and when the police, or lawyers and judges, or prison officials, break the law it turns out to be astonishingly difficult to hold them to account. Innocent people are executed in that benighted nation. Innocent people spend their lives in your prisons.
You might want to ask, for example, why the world's richest and most unequal nation requires a larger prison system to imprison more of its own people than any other country on the planet. Or to investigate how it is that the third largest employer in the world's major economy just turns out to be its prison industries, enjoying forcible access to an immense prison population on terms more favourable than locating in the most abject of third world countries.
28 Aug 17
Originally posted by @finneganYour ramblings don't change actual facts:
Yes it would be nice to entertain the delusion that the US prison system and its justice system generally does what it does out of a disinterested desire to uphold the laws of the land. That disingenuous belief is not sustainable in any intelligent discussion.
Actually, all the data presented by @joe-shmo tells us, for example, is who the FBI recor ...[text shortened]... n population on terms more favourable than locating in the most abject of third world countries.
1. The overwhelming number of people charged with crimes, despite all the protections given, are subsequently convicted.
2. The overwhelming number of people convicted of crimes actually committed those crimes.
3. A disproportionate number of minorities commit crimes.
If we want change, then lets regardless that the real problem is simple: too much crime is committed.
Originally posted by @quackquackI have no desire to change "actual facts." Instead I debate them as well as I can, checking the evidence and the reasoning. I find that the actual facts to which I draw your attention seem to provoke evasive responses because you have no desire at all to address actual facts. You just want me to accept the limited set of so called facts that fit your version of reality and you cannot tolerate being challenged about them.
Your ramblings don't change actual facts:
1. The overwhelming number of people charged with crimes, despite all the protections given, are subsequently convicted.
2. The overwhelming number of people convicted of crimes actually committed those crimes.
3. A disproportionate number of minorities commit crimes.
If we want change, then lets regardless that the real problem is simple: too much crime is committed.
Your three claims are pretty banal.
1. Have you checked out the "actual facts" about conviction rates? Here are a few. In the U.S. federal court system, the conviction rate rose from approximately 75 percent to approximately 85% between 1972 and 1992. For 2012, the US Department of Justice reported a 93% conviction rate. The conviction rate is also high in U.S. state courts. Coughlan writes, "In recent years, the conviction rate has averaged approximately 84% in Texas, 82% in California, 72% in New York, 67% in North Carolina, and 59% in Florida." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
What conclusion do you draw from these very different conviction rates? Is this a simple issue for you when you see the "actual facts"? Are the actual facts a bit boring for you and too difficult to handle?
You have to consider disparities between White and Black people in every single step leading up to arrest and charge, including the choice of what crime to charge them with when there is a choice, as there very often is. Black people are more likely to be in areas that are heavily policed, more likely to encounter aggressive policing practices, more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, more likely to be arrested, more likely to have the more serious rather than the more lenient charge, etc. .... You have not begun to explore this territory.
Convictions do not always arise from a fair trial with a robust defence. A large proportion arise from guilty pleas, in the USA often through plea bargains, often without benefit of good legal advice, often under duress, while many enter trials without legal representation and without a competent defence. Good lawyers are not around for the poor.
2. The overwhelming number of people convicted of crimes actually committed them.
Many crimes are more likely to have Black than White defendants because of the way the laws are written. Black crimes are more likely to be subject to prosecution than predominantly White crimes.
Wrongful conviction rates are an issue you need to at least acknowledge. This is a huge topic in its own right. For example:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/04/28/how-many-people-are-wrongly-convicted-researchers-do-the-math/
Even when guilty of a given crime, sentencing is discriminatory and there are huge disparities between Black and White defendents convicted of identical crimes.
Once in the prison system, administrative offences are given severe penalties without fair trials, and can hugely extend the time spent in prison.
3. A disproportionate number of minorities commit crime.
Well that is damned well inevitable don't you think under this regime.
The problem is not simple. For example, I am not making a simplistic claim, such as that Black people or minorities do not commit crime. You are failing even to establish what problem you think exists. Before there is a crime there has to be a law, and the law reflects the concerns and priorities and agendas of the politicians, Faced with a social problem, it is open to debate why the proposed solution even has to be to criminalise the problem and why locking humans in prisons for decades at a stretch is imagined to be a proportionate response, let alone a solution.
Take drugs. Why are there illegal drugs and legal ones? Why is it legal to sell tobacco, or alcohol, or to lace childrens' food with sugar? All are addictive and all cause health problems and behavioural problems. Why is the solution to "drugs" a criminal law solution, and not an education solution, a health service solution, a therapeutic solution, a welfare solution? Why is the problem the criminal and not the criminal law and the entire industry around that criminal system? Why does nobody act on what we all know - the "war on drugs" has been a social disaster and that is not the fault of all the people turned into criminals by that war on drugs who never need have been made into criminals to start with.
There is indeed a simple reason why the USA has so many criminals and so many prison places and so many slave workers in its prison industries. And that reason is not because too many minorities commit crimes. It is because the USA is manufacturing criminals and making a healthy profit out of their bodies and souls.
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28 Aug 17
Originally posted by @finneganThe statistics I presented are arrests, not convictions.
[b]First of three posts
Okay idiot features, you really ought to get an adult to check your posts before submitting them to public ridicule.
Not every prisoner in a US prison has a conviction for a crime. Huge numbers languish in prison with no conviction whatsoever. US prisons for example incarcerate people who are not criminal but mentally i ...[text shortened]... unreasonable doubt and plain, obstinate, self deluding pig ignorance. That's were you come in.[/b]
From an earlier post of mine: "So what your really saying with this asinine logic is there exists no correlation between those who are arrested for a crime, and those who are incarcerated for said crime? You have to be joking..." @finnegan
It goes something like this:
There are more people that have committed a crime than those that are arrested for the crime, and more people arrested for a crime than those in prison for a crime. However, there is a
correlation between committing a crime and being incarcerated for committing a crime.
Do you think the crimes in the Black communities don't exist? The FBI just makes them up? the 4,300 shootings that occurred in Chicago in 2016, 75% Black on Black...All of those a made up. Your telling me that the people policing of these communities should not be more aggressive in the South Side of Chicago?
Ladies and gentlemen. Finnegan is on a dingy boat in the ocean and it springs a leak. The ramifications could easily be mitigated by identifying it as a leak, and policing the leak with the bucket at his feet. However, Finnegan doesn't believe in policing high level threats to his existence. Instead, Finnegan ignores the bucket sinks and dies...what a nice story.
28 Aug 17
Originally posted by @finneganI honestly like the fact that the view the world differently than me. I'm just not sure how to respond to statements you make "like the US is manufacturing criminals and making a healthy profit out of their bodies and souls." No one "needs" to be in the drug trade. They made a choice and when they are caught they are punished for violating the law. These individuals are social and economic liabilities. The fact that you implicitly feel they should be pardoned because people legally sell sugar products is humorous by unconvincing. Incarcerated people are expensive and produce virtually nothing. To claim we want these people locked up is just flat our absurd. We want law abiding citizens.
I have no desire to change "actual facts." Instead I debate them as well as I can, checking the evidence and the reasoning. I find that the actual facts to which I draw your attention seem to provoke evasive responses because you have no desire at all to address actual facts. You just want me to accept the limited set of so called facts that fit your v ...[text shortened]... se the USA is manufacturing criminals and making a healthy profit out of their bodies and souls.
28 Aug 17
Originally posted by @quackquackTegucigalpa has a fairly small fraction of "minorities," especially for a capital city, but extremely high crime, much higher than most U.S. cities. Meanwhile, the city of Amsterdam has a comparable or higher number of "minorities" but lower crime than most major U.S. cities. Clearly the number of "minorities," in and of itself, does not tell you a whole lot about crime.
Your ramblings don't change actual facts:
1. The overwhelming number of people charged with crimes, despite all the protections given, are subsequently convicted.
2. The overwhelming number of people convicted of crimes actually committed those crimes.
3. A disproportionate number of minorities commit crimes.
If we want change, then lets regardless that the real problem is simple: too much crime is committed.
28 Aug 17
Originally posted by @joe-shmoRead my three posts properly if you want to respond effectively.
The statistics I presented are arrests, not convictions.
From an earlier post of mine: "So what your really saying with this asinine logic is there exists no correlation between those who are [b]arrested for a crime, and those who are incarcerated for said crime? You have to be joking..." @finnegan
It goes something like this:
There are more pe ...[text shortened]... eats to his existence. Instead, Finnegan ignores the bucket sinks and dies...what a nice story.[/b]
As I said to quackquack, it is not me having difficulty dealing with facts.
29 Aug 17
Originally posted by @kazetnagorraIt may not tell you everything but you'd be burying your head in the sand to not recognize in the US there is a higher crime rate among minorities.
Tegucigalpa has a fairly small fraction of "minorities," especially for a capital city, but extremely high crime, much higher than most U.S. cities. Meanwhile, the city of Amsterdam has a comparable or higher number of "minorities" but lower crime than most major U.S. cities. Clearly the number of "minorities," in and of itself, does not tell you a whole lot about crime.
29 Aug 17
Originally posted by @finneganYour theory that we imprison people to get cheap labor is amusing. Prisoners basically do nothing for society and contribute nothing to society. They are a huge expense and a huge net negative.
Yes it would be nice to entertain the delusion that the US prison system and its justice system generally does what it does out of a disinterested desire to uphold the laws of the land. That disingenuous belief is not sustainable in any intelligent discussion.
Actually, all the data presented by @joe-shmo tells us, for example, is who the FBI recor ...[text shortened]... n population on terms more favourable than locating in the most abject of third world countries.
Originally posted by @quackquackYou really know nothing.
Your theory that we imprison people to get cheap labor is amusing. Prisoners basically do nothing for society and contribute nothing to society. They are a huge expense and a huge net negative.
Prison industries are the US's third biggest employer. Get yourself better informed on the scale of their production.
But just running prisons is itself a huge business and a great little earner.
Check out for example Mike Pence's private prison connections
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2013/4/1/1198564/-Indiana-Governor-Rewards-Private-Prison-Lobby-with-Draconian-Marijuana-Punishments
The day after Trump's election shares in prison stocks "skyrocketed."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/23/private-prisons-back-trump-and-could-see-big-payoffs-new-policies/98300394/
And you know that clampdown on migrants? You imagine Trump gives a sht about any of this? Guess who will make a killing out of the Trump policies on migrants?
"Significantly for private-prison operators, the orders also require that undocumented people caught entering the country be detained until their cases are resolved, ending the “catch and release” program in which undocumented immigrants were processed by immigration agents, released into the USA and ordered to reappear for court hearings.
The new directives call for construction of more jails along the southwest border to accommodate the additional detainees. About 65% of Homeland Security detainees last year were held in privately run facilities."
Actually I could continue almost indefinitely showing you examples of the sheer filthy greed associated with your country's criminal justice system. It is so sick you should vomit to see what is being done to the lives of your fellow humans in the name of profit.
Here's a judge convicted of sending juveniles to prison in exchange for kickbacks (bribes, money) from the private prison. How sick do you think this stuff can get? It gets very sick indeed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?mcubz=0