14 Dec 21
@zahlanzi saidStrange for me to read that, Zhalanzi. You are saying, then, that self-interest is a bad thing. Probably the strangest thing that I have read, written by anyone.
"Conservatism’s profound insight is that it’s impossible to build a healthy society strictly on the principle of self-interest. "
This made me laugh. Whenever someone said "let's improve society somewhat" conservatives stood in the way. Abolishing slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights for African americans, gay rights, workers rights.
On the contrary. conservatives ar ...[text shortened]... guided by the principle "this doesn't affect me, changing it might, we're in no hurry, we can wait"
If we all lived on an island, and each of us endeavors to improve his lot in life by 'self-interest', in a perfect world (no losers and wastrels) the island would thrive,,,,,the envy of all islands.
What do you think should otherwise happen on the island? What is the better premise?
Please give me an honest answer.
14 Dec 21
@wildgrass said===What happened to American Conservatism?===
A healthy democracy requires a strong conservative party and a strong liberal party arguing for their views publicly and vigorously. The voters decide what views they prefer, and vote accordingly. We don't have that.
"True conservatism’s great virtue is that it teaches us to be humble about what we know; it gets human nature right and understands that we are primarily a ...[text shortened]... ntic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/brooks-true-conservatism-dead-fox-news-voter-suppression/620853/ )
We're in exile.
We'll be back when wokism runs out of steam and stops pushing the center-right into the arms of the reactionaries.
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15 Dec 21
@wildgrass saidhttps://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a38514277/mark-meadows-texts-fox-news-trump-conservatism/
A healthy democracy requires a strong conservative party and a strong liberal party arguing for their views publicly and vigorously. The voters decide what views they prefer, and vote accordingly. We don't have that.
"True conservatism’s great virtue is that it teaches us to be humble about what we know; it gets human nature right and understands that we are primarily a ...[text shortened]... ntic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/brooks-true-conservatism-dead-fox-news-voter-suppression/620853/ )
@sh76 saidSome comedian said it before me, but I want to live to see the day when the current woke are called out for not being nearly woke enough by the next generation.
===What happened to American Conservatism?===
We're in exile.
We'll be back when wokism runs out of steam and stops pushing the center-right into the arms of the reactionaries.
- Joined
- 27 Sep 06
- Moves
- 251103
15 Dec 21
@averagejoe1 saidVote you off the island?
Strange for me to read that, Zhalanzi. You are saying, then, that self-interest is a bad thing. Probably the strangest thing that I have read, written by anyone.
If we all lived on an island, and each of us endeavors to improve his lot in life by 'self-interest', in a perfect world (no losers and wastrels) the island would thrive,,,,,the envy of all islands.
Wh ...[text shortened]... ld otherwise happen on the island? What is the better premise?
Please give me an honest answer.
15 Dec 21
@averagejoe1 saidI've seen Gilligan's Island. They specialize. There was a doctor and a farmer and a professor who made cool stuff. If everyone only looks after themselves, everyone would have to learn how to do everything. It'd be terribly inefficient.
Strange for me to read that, Zhalanzi. You are saying, then, that self-interest is a bad thing. Probably the strangest thing that I have read, written by anyone.
If we all lived on an island, and each of us endeavors to improve his lot in life by 'self-interest', in a perfect world (no losers and wastrels) the island would thrive,,,,,the envy of all islands.
Wh ...[text shortened]... ld otherwise happen on the island? What is the better premise?
Please give me an honest answer.
16 Dec 21
@wildgrass said"Self-interest refers to actions that elicit the most personal benefit. Adam Smith, the FATHER of modern economics (Y'all have chided me on my Econ references), explains that the best economic for ALL can usually be accomplished when individuals act in their own self interest.......Self Interest is arguably the single larges motivator of economic activity."
I've seen Gilligan's Island. They specialize. There was a doctor and a farmer and a professor who made cool stuff. If everyone only looks after themselves, everyone would have to learn how to do everything. It'd be terribly inefficient.
I didn't just pull this out of thin air, so I must teach Econ. This is a common tenet of the whole thing. Your Gilligan's analogy fails.
Furthermore, when dozens or even thousands act in their own self-interest, goods and services are created that benefit consumers and producers.
Now, I'm open for questions 🙂 🙂
16 Dec 21
@AverageJoe1
This is a GREAT observation of the difference in how libs (you) see society, and how Cons (me) see society. One of us is wrong. Either you are wrong, or Adam Smith and AvJoe are wrong.
16 Dec 21
Someone once said that all human-caused problems and suffering can be traced to wealth inequality and religion, and often those two support and feed each other. The greater the wealth inequality, the greater the suffering and turmoil, just like water -- the bigger the elevation difference, the more violent the waterfall.
@zahlanzi saidEconomic conservative's insight is that if you don't constantly have a government which interferes with the status quo and takes from some groups and gives to others, that people will be able to take care of themselves, keep the fruits of their labors and innovate.
"Conservatism’s profound insight is that it’s impossible to build a healthy society strictly on the principle of self-interest. "
This made me laugh. Whenever someone said "let's improve society somewhat" conservatives stood in the way. Abolishing slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights for African americans, gay rights, workers rights.
On the contrary. conservatives ar ...[text shortened]... guided by the principle "this doesn't affect me, changing it might, we're in no hurry, we can wait"
America works best with less government interference. It was private industry that developed vaccines and countless inventions.
Let's stop looking at the world through a lens where all producers as exploiters and all those who are successful are obligated to contribute even more. People for the most part can and will take care of themselves when there isn't a bully government which constantly undoes everyones bargains.
16 Dec 21
@bunnyknight saidIm not denying that, but it is not the issue of the moment.
Someone once said that all human-caused problems and suffering can be traced to wealth inequality and religion, and often those two support and feed each other. The greater the wealth inequality, the greater the suffering and turmoil, just like water -- the bigger the elevation difference, the more violent the waterfall.
Is self interest good or is it bad. I say, and have Shown above, that it is good
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16 Dec 21
@averagejoe1 saidFunny, the other 'FATHER' of
"Self-interest refers to actions that elicit the most personal benefit. Adam Smith, the FATHER of modern economics (Y'all have chided me on my Econ references), explains that the best economic for ALL can usually be accomplished when individuals act in their own self interest.......Self Interest is arguably the single larges motivator of economic activity."
I didn't ...[text shortened]... nd services are created that benefit consumers and producers.
Now, I'm open for questions 🙂 🙂
modern economics, John Maynard Keynes,
has a completely different take;
https://www.studymode.com/essays/John-Maynard-Keynes-And-Adam-Smith-481110.html
16 Dec 21
@quackquack saidA very well written post maturely done, something like I might write, but I am always in more of a defensive mode.
Economic conservative's insight is that if you don't constantly have a government which interferes with the status quo and takes from some groups and gives to others, that people will be able to take care of themselves, keep the fruits of their labors and innovate.
America works best with less government interference. It was private industry that developed vaccines and c ...[text shortened]... e care of themselves when there isn't a bully government which constantly undoes everyones bargains.
16 Dec 21
@quackquack
That is all well and good but how do you think we now no longer have 10 year old children working in mines?
Or any kind of medical help from an accident at work?
Or a mining company dumping toxic waste in our rivers?
Do you seriously think the regulations designed to stop exactly that kind of abuse should now be rescinded because YOU want them to be gone? Hmm, Just like your buddy Trump.
No more about that 'insert pejorative'.
So you think such policies as killing the science unit of the USDA is a GOOD thing.
Or the same with the decimation of the EPA.
So now it's ok for what, 100,000 frackers forcing methane into nearby citizen's water supply, so HEY, WE GOT JOBS so BACK OFF.
Yep, companies are SO benign and always SO altruistic.
Sure, and JFK and son will appear at one of those wackathons going on now.