Originally posted by ncrosbyI am not sure if it is going overboard, but if i am guilty of wanting change, then i admit it, gladly. I would like to belong to a community where women can be themselves and not be harrassed. A site where women do not have to hide behind asexual names, but can be proud of who they are and know that any attention they receive will be as a result of the things that they say, the things that they do and the individual person that they are.
Holy cow, it's just the name of a clan on a chess website! Would it be fairer if I started a clan called Little *its, to even it out and all the women on the site won't feel that chess playing men are only interested in large breasts? I'm sorry, I think that's about the rudest thing I've ever said on this site, but come on, that's going a little overboard isn't it?
ncrosby🙂
I do not agree with you if you are saying that things are perfect and cannot be improved, I believe that things can be and should be better.
Breaca
Originally posted by BreacaWhat if someone's clan name was Big Beautiful Eyes? Would that make all girls with tiny plain eyes feel bad? Would you honestly object to that? I don't mean this in any rude way at all but you need to be honest with yourself on the fact that when someone sees someone else, these are the first things that they notice. Hair, eyes... breasts... it's just the way it is. I'm not exactly saying I think it's okay for the name Big Juggies to be allowed (personally I thought W*nkers R Us was kinda funny... knowing the story behind it, I'm sure all Metallica members thought it was "cute"...), but I'm just wondering what you think would be acceptable.
Breasts are a part of the human body, not a separate commodity. Breast size or shape or colours, although maybe pleasing to the eye, do not constitute the whole person, or even a tiny amount of that person’s value or importance.
I am sure ...[text shortened]... aretnblue’s clan would agree that size is unimportant
Breaca.
-Kev
Originally posted by elvendreamgirlSarah, you are right when you say that RHP is better than sites like Yahoo, you are also right when you say that harrassment is happening on this site and also wider afield, but I don't want to learn how to handle it, i don't want it to happen at all.
When I am insulted in a game, I either resign the game, give it right back to him, or stop talking all together. Just like all women, I am used to dealing with some form of sexual harassment. Unfortunately, it goes with the territory. Women simply have to learn how to handle male behavior. I am not condoning it, nor am I saying that all men do it, bu ...[text shortened]... than other chess sites such as yahoo, where 8 out of 10 games come with an invitaion to cyber.
I know this topic is, as you say, very difficult to police, but in my eyes that isn't an excuse for doing nothing. I would be happier in my self to try my very best and fail, rather than to turn a blind eye and accept it as a fact of life. It was after all once a fact of life that women in the UK were not even entitled to vote.
Your friend
B
Originally posted by BreacaBreaca,
The fact that there is a clan named Giant Juggies on RHP says a great deal about how women can be used for gratification on what is a family chess site and how our community too readily accepts such things.....
When I am older should I stop ...[text shortened]... ould prefer because
“ I am beautiful no matter what they say “
I hope you will find the world you wish to find when you become an adult. I don’t accept that I have to expect harassment. I haven’t had any experience in my games on rhp with people who have been anything but respectful, courteous and friendly. Only in the forums have people spoken in a disrespectful or callous way, while missing the point of what I’ve said. That (along with the time factor) is why I participate rarely on the forums. I choose my battles and it just hasn’t felt worthwhile to “fight” here… I mean, for what? But I do see a “for what?” in your thread, especially through your courageous posts.
You want to be part of a community where people are respectful of each other, and you are right on in your analyses. Ncrosby writes about your view of the Giant Juggies clan “...but come on, isn’t this going overboard?” It certainly is not. Attitudes towards women (e.g. objectifying them) are so ingrained that things like what you are questioning are completely accepted to the point where people think it is ridiculous it is even questioned. And I mean good, caring people even think the question is ridiculous.
But that is how change starts – with questioning and getting people to really think (myself included) about what it is that is so readily accepted. That’s how important social movements have always started and progressed. Ghandi questioned why India’s people should be governed by foreigners. The British thought this was a ridiculous question as did some Indians…. The British after all had been ruling since the late 1600’s. Nelson Mandella questioned why South Africa’s black people, who were the majority, were systematically denied power and kept subjugated and humiliated. Nellie McLung in the early 1900’s questioned why women in Canada were not allowed to vote. All of these questions began important processes of change.
Women, throughout history have been treated like property and as such objects for possession. That is why these attitudes are insidious …. Good people do not even recognize them in our everyday lives. They have permeated our humour and there propagated further as humour surely cannot be questioned!! If it is, then the one who is questioning is seen not to have a sense of humour, and so becomes the butt of jokes or even anger. The words we use, the things we laugh at shape our thoughts. And if we use and accept words that are devaluing of others, even in jest… we are on some level shaping our thoughts and sensitivities in this direction.
Breaca, what you’ve started, with your questioning, is an important process of change. And I support you 100% !!!!
in peace
Ranjana
I haven't knowingly been involved in anything sexist myself, but two female players who seem to have had a hard time on the forums are misslead and skeeter.
At times misslead has sounded convinced that the moderators are prejudiced against her. As I'm not a mod, I haven't seen which of her posts have been removed, but the ones that haven't don't suggest to me that she's likely to have caused great offence with the removed ones. All I can say is that I sometimes find her posts a bit hard to understand, due to their terse style, so perhaps some of her posts have been misinterpreted and caused offence that way.
I've seen many accusations of gamesmanship (gameswomanship?) regarding timeouts levelled at skeeter, and the implication is that she's done something to secure these timeouts unfairly. Seeing as timeouts are such a standard feature of RHP, it does seem like in the case of skeeter some of the blokes on this site were annoyed at a woman being at the top of the ratings table, judging by the level of criticism she received. At the same time different people have different rules of etiquette for timeouts, and it may be that some are vehemently opposed to a policy of always taking them.
I have perfect 0 score against my female opponents (Conticchio, Bessyboo) here:-) I also constatly play with my very favorite uChess opponent Crazy (who used to play at RHP too) there with same perfect 0 score so far. And I must say that not only they all are among the toughest players I met at RHP, but they also know how to win with grace.
Although I'm not that much into chess to treat women whom I meet over the board as "just a chessplayer":-)
Originally posted by imveganExcellent post, Ranjana. I have been sitting with this issue for a couple of days sorting out where I am with it. My head would certainly tell me that harrassment is wrong. My experience tells me that I have participated on subtle levels and in fact enjoyed it. I'll explain some more. So when I see a clan called the "Giant Juggies" I am not offended , but rather amused.
Breaca,
I hope you will find the world you wish to find when you become an adult. I don’t accept that I have to expect harassment. I haven’t had any experience in my games on rhp with people who have been anything but respectful, courteous and friendly. Only in the forums have people spoken in a disrespectful or callous way, while missing the point of ...[text shortened]... ioning, is an important process of change. And I support you 100% !!!!
in peace
Ranjana
Most men I know did not get their relational or sexual education from their parents. If they did, it was likely negative. Most men that I know, including myself, received their understanding of sex from what we call pornography. Parents passed off this responsibiltiy to this type of media. It was where we learned about that stuff.
Another piece of the puzzle for me is that I grew up in a home/culture where it was not permissable to engage in 1) questions about sex, 2) playful banter about sex and 3) mature discussion about sex. Rather there was a religious culture that put shame on us (men) about this whole topic. We learned our bodies were bad and sinful because we had "urges."
If you have ever read the book "Portnoy's Complaint" , in a way it is every man's story of struggling with parental repression and acting out sexually. One of my favorite personalities in the media is frequently vilified by people, especially "religious " people. He is Howard Stern. He frequently puts women in the role of being seen as "sex objects." Yet he is also one of the first people who would stand up for women when they are mistreated. Or gays who are condemned. As you know I work with terminally ill and I was very touched by how he had a young man come to see him who was dying from kidney disease. He had several strippers come and give them both massages. While this seems like an inappropiate thing, for me it seemed to be quite a spiritual moment for this young man. And humorous.
Men like to laugh about sex. We laugh because it sometimes scares us. We also tend to minimize women not always because we think less of them, but more because we're afraid we are already less than them. Sometimes we puff up and you may think we are full of it. We are. We are full of shame and simply become arrogant as a coping mechanism.
None of what I am saying is to dispute your take. I am simply sharing some of my experiences with myself and other men that have shared with me. Most men I know today would rather be Hugh Hefner than Jerry Falwell. I know there is lots of middle ground between these two. Men as a whole would rather ogle than reveal who they are. I am one of those, but I am hopefully receptive to hearing your truth as I hope others will be. As a side note I once suggested to someone the name of a clan be called "The Ellen Jamesians". If you've ever read the "World According to Garp" you know where this comes from. Men (as Robin Williams says) should never have to "cut their balls off and hang them around their neck" to be accepted any more than women should have to "show cleavage" to get accepted.
Originally posted by AcolyteI've been sitting at the computer for a couple of hours trying to formulate a response to this post, and can't seem to find the words that I want to say. So I'll just say this:
I haven't knowingly been involved in anything sexist myself, but two female players who seem to have had a hard time on the forums are misslead and skeeter.
At times misslead has sounded convinced that the moderators are prejudiced against her. As I'm not a mod, I haven't seen which of her posts have been removed, but the ones that haven't don't sug ...[text shortened]... for timeouts, and it may be that some are vehemently opposed to a policy of always taking them.
I am making an announcement to the whole RHP community. The day that I am treated in a "special" light, when I am NOT modded when I deserve it, when I am NOT held accountable for any actions that anyone has a problem with, BECAUSE I am a woman, is the day I leave RHP for good.
Think of all the people that have been tore up on the forums for one action or another. Think of all the people that have been modded on the forums for some words or another. The only 2 women, out of ALL those people that I can think of are Skeeter and Misslead. And you choose those 2 to say they have been treated unfairly. If I see anything as discrimination, that is it.
ncrosby
Originally posted by BreacaBreaca,
I do not agree with you if you are saying that things are perfect and cannot be improved, I believe that things can be and should be better.
Breaca
You echo the words of Bobby Kennedy when he said, "Some look at the world as it is and ask, "Why?" I look at the world the way it should be and ask, "Why not?"
Your visions for a better world are indeed noble and worth working for. I am constantly impressed with your eloquence and wisdom on these posts. You wonderfully represent the face of our future leaders-- Watch out world, there's gonna be a whole lot of changing goin' on! 🙂
Originally posted by ncrosby
I am making an announcement to the whole RHP community. The day that I am treated in a "special" light, when I am NOT modded when I deserve it, when I am NOT held accountable for any actions that anyone has a problem with, BECAUSE I am a woman, is the day I leave RHP for good.
and that cannot possibly happen because i cannot see the day when you do anything on the forums that should be modded out. i have found you to be one of the nicest people on RHP and it has nothing to do with your being a woman. it has everything to do with your posts and the pm conversations we have had in the past.
The only 2 women, out of ALL those people that I can think of are Skeeter and Misslead. And you choose those 2 to say they have been treated unfairly.
i don't think that is what acolyte is saying exactly. if i might give my perspective on some of this, since i do have some understanding of some of the details.
misslead was banned because of language problems one night (and not the kind acolyte is saying which makes her posts sometimes cryptic). she was not banned because she was a woman or because she was not a woman. there was no discrimination one way or another from what i recall.
the skeeter story is quite different because there was a history of personal attacks against her. she retaliated on the forums quite justly and the attacks intensified. she also received pm messages of a very hostile nature. some of the threads are still on the forums (mercifully buried in the past) and they are a disgusting example of a bad thing that was never stopped in time. there was a particularly distasteful thread started in the clan forums asking "who would marry skeeter", started as one of those 'harmless' jokes - and it went wild. fortunately, the creator of the thread went to the mods and asked to have the thread removed and that was done with extreme promptness by one of the best mods of all time, T1000.
though i didn't see all of the threads, i feel after talking to skeeter (who was all set to leave the site), and several others that this was to a very large extent an ugly example of sexism just as acolyte has suggested. it should never have been allowed to go to the extent it did and certainly it must not happen again.
i am inclined to think that the reason this sort of thing went on was because it looked like a bunch of people bickering and no one pushed the 'alert moderator' button. the mods cannot always act unless they are told, because they are just volunteers and not forum patrollers. some people feel they should fight their own battles, i think that skeeter gutsy and resilient as she is, tried to do just that. however, this sort of battle is something no one should have to fight.
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by ncrosbyHmm, perhaps I didn't explain my post very well. I was merely trying to give some concrete examples of women who've possibly been mistreated on the forums. In neither case do I know that they were treated unfairly, or if they were that it was motivated by sexism, but neither can I be sure that they weren't. I tried to convey this uncertainty in the post, in the hope that someone else would fill in the details (as prad kindly has).
I've been sitting at the computer for a couple of hours trying to formulate a response to this post, and can't seem to find the words that I want to say. So I'll just say this:
I am making an announcement to the whole RHP community. The day that I am treated in a "special" light, when I am NOT modded when I deserve it, when I am NOT held accountab ...[text shortened]... ay they have been treated unfairly. If I see anything as discrimination, that is it.
ncrosby
I'm certainly not advocating special treatment for women; what good would it do me? 😛 Seriously though, it annoys me when men or women say that the opposite sex should get special privileges for no particular reason, just as much as if it's for the same sex.
Colin
Originally posted by pradtfThank you Prad for your kind words. Your post, Acolyte's post, and a day to think about it, has calmed me down on the subject. I still would have disagreed, but I don't think I would have so adamantly opposed this whole argument if it wasn't on top of all the other arguing and negative activity on the site lately. Things do seem to be calming down a little now though, which is good.
Originally posted by ncrosby
[b]I am making an announcement to the whole RHP community. The day that I am treated in a "special" light, when I am NOT modded when I deserve it, when I am NOT held accountable for any actions that anyone has a problem with, BECAUSE I am a woman, is the day I leave RHP for good.
and that cannot possibly happen bec ...[text shortened]... . however, this sort of battle is something no one should have to fight.
in friendship,
prad[/b]
Thank you for your explanation about Skeeter. I was only involved in the threads in the general forum and didn't see the other stuff that was going on and didn't know about the pm's. At the time, and when Acolyte posted his message here, I had no idea where the whole sexism thing came from and was quite upset that just because it was a woman that people were upset at it for once it was deemed as sexism. I would hate to think that the opinion of people is get mad at SVW, at Claretnblue, at Ivanhoe, etc etc all you want but you can't have a problem with a woman, because well, she's a woman. I do agree that it went too far now that you've explained what happened, but I don't think the fact that she is a woman on top was the source of the problem in the first place. No one should be subject to the kind of ridicule she did, man or woman, but the source of the problem whether it was accurate or not was fair. It just went way too far.
ncrosby🙂
Originally posted by AcolyteThanks Colin, I probably just read more into your post than what was actually there. 😳😀
Hmm, perhaps I didn't explain my post very well. I was merely trying to give some concrete examples of women who've possibly been mistreated on the forums. In neither case do I know that they were treated unfairly, or if they were that it was motivated by sexism, but neither can I be sure that they weren't. I tried to convey this uncertainty in ...[text shortened]... pecial privileges for no particular reason, just as much as if it's for the same sex.
Colin
ncrosby🙂
Originally posted by BreacaWow, when you said i had a forum to read i honestly didn't think that it would be this long. I am flying out to singapore on wednesday....but have to pack in between! so for that reason i cannot read all but i will have a scan through it.........but if i do not follow with another post.....Hey You Go Girl!
Why do men assume that women can’t play chess, or at least can’t play to the same “standard as boys”. I have lost count of the number of occasions where I have turned up with my team, only to be either ushered without asking to the table for board six, or to be deliberately mistaken for the team cheerleader. I used to think that this was a consequence of play ...[text shortened]... n what I am and what I do rather than by what I was born.
Breaca
VeggieChess and RHP Angel
:-)
Zoe