army life, is it worth it?

Originally posted by Starrman
Joining the army is basically handing over control of your own ideas and actions in return for being taught how to actually cause harm to other humans. Sure, it pays well and you get fit, you may even learn thing that are important to you in life, get an education etc. But you need to weigh up how the balance between those things and actually being traine ...[text shortened]... ife on the line for something as ridiculous as patriotism, and agreeing to murder other humans.

Yeah, let someone else die in your place....you pencil necked geek!

GRANNY.

Originally posted by Iron Monkey
Secondly, warfare is not legitimate self-defence, it is institutionalised apologist killing

of course war can be conducted in self-defence. if some other country attacks yours, and your country defends itself, that's legitimate self-defence. just war theory acknowledges that fact..

How does Iraq 2 fit then?

Originally posted by Iron Monkey
[b]Firstly, joining the army in time of peace is a completely different matter.

well, it's a bit late to join when the enemy is already marching in, isn't it? what are you going to do, say 'oh sorry, we're not ready for you. please come back in a little while after we've recruited and trained our army'.

Secondly, warfare is not legitimate s ...[text shortened]... sts? Do you think that just because the enemy is not a state that it poses no threat?

You're equating "defending the US" with "defending US interests". Why?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
You're equating "defending the US" with "defending US interests". Why?

Same , Same, Water Buffalo.

Granny

Originally posted by Starrman
Joining the army is basically handing over control of your own ideas and actions in return for being taught how to actually cause harm to other humans. Sure, it pays well and you get fit, you may even learn thing that are important to you in life, get an education etc. But you need to weigh up how the balance between those things and actually being traine ...[text shortened]... ife on the line for something as ridiculous as patriotism, and agreeing to murder other humans.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Starrman
Joining the army is basically handing over control of your own ideas and actions in return for being taught how to actually cause harm to other humans. Sure, it pays well and you get fit, you may even learn thing that are important to you in life, get an education etc. But you need to weigh up how the balance between those things and actually being traine ...[text shortened]... ife on the line for something as ridiculous as patriotism, and agreeing to murder other humans.

UP NOSE

RUBBER HOSE


GRANNY.

Originally posted by uzless
How does Iraq 2 fit then?

WMDs.

Originally posted by smw6869
Same , Same, Water Buffalo.

Granny

i don't equate these two, though there is obviously significant overlap. the reason i don't equate them is that, while i think self-defence is always justified, i don't think that the furtherance of self-interest is always justified.

the US economy is critically dependant on foreign oil - so much so that any threat to the supply of that oil can be construed as a threat to the welfare of the US itself. that is why a defence of US interests in an area like this amounts to self-defence.

Originally posted by uzless
How does Iraq 2 fit then?

first, let me point out that the first line in your quote was in turn quoted by me from the post of someone else - it was a quote i was responding to, not my own words.

but to answer your question:

1. i haven't claimed that all war is legitimate self-defence, only that some of it is.
2. it's easy to argue that a successful regime change in Iraq was in American interests.
3. this is not to claim that that particular war was justified, but i don't claim the opposite either.

Originally posted by Iron Monkey
i don't equate these two, though there is obviously significant overlap. the reason i don't equate them is that, while i think self-defence is always justified, i don't think that the furtherance of self-interest is always justified.

the US economy is critically dependant on foreign oil - so much so that any threat to the supply of that oil can be con ...[text shortened]... S itself. that is why a defence of US interests in an area like this amounts to self-defence.

are you serious? our dependance on foriegn oil is due to oil companies manipulating our government. we could have ended our dependance years ago if we had invested money in research, raised the cafe standard every 4 years, and made high effieciency heating and air conditioning equipment mandatory in all new contruction, and all retrofit applications for the last 20 years. We can hardly site national security issues for what is clearly an issue of greed and incompitence.

Originally posted by duecer
are you serious? our dependance on foriegn oil is due to oil companies manipulating our government. we could have ended our dependance years ago if we had invested money in research, raised the cafe standard every 4 years, and made high effieciency heating and air conditioning equipment mandatory in all new contruction, and all retrofit applications for the l ...[text shortened]... can hardly site national security issues for what is clearly an issue of greed and incompitence.

I guess we will just have to go back to bed and put the covers over our heads. We were bad and we'll just have to go down the piss shoot.
Do you think we're still installing 1940's type heating and air conditioning systems. We've been installing high efficiency H&AC for 40 years now. WHY? Because people don't want to pay high fuel, gas, and elec bills.

GRANNY

Originally posted by smw6869
I guess we will just have to go back to bed and put the covers over our heads. We were bad and we'll just have to go down the piss shoot.
Do you think we're still installing 1940's type heating and air conditioning systems. We've been installing high efficiency H&AC for 40 years now. WHY? Because people don't want to pay high fuel, gas, and elec bills.

GRANNY

wrong, I install hvac for a living, I work at a college, and own my own small business. Most people will go with "low bidder" on a construction project. The vast majority of equipment installed in the last 20 years is not energy star rated. It was only last year that the government mandated 13 seer A/C equipment. However that does not cover ductless split systems, and window ac's, which constitute a large part of the market. I am not a hypocrate, I will only install energy star rated equipment, even if it means losing the job.

And yes your way of thinking is to just pull the cover over our heads. we must take responsiblilty for our dependance on oil. And just a thought...how is our dependance on oil Iraq's fault?

Originally posted by duecer
wrong, I install hvac for a living, I work at a college, and own my own small business. Most people will go with "low bidder" on a construction project. The vast majority of equipment installed in the last 20 years is not energy star rated. It was only last year that the government mandated 13 seer A/C equipment. However that does not cover ductless split sys ...[text shortened]... y for our dependance on oil. And just a thought...how is our dependance on oil Iraq's fault?

I work in the small residential General contracting business. I have never, ever had a customer install anything but the most efficient energy saving H&AC system. I was insinuating that YOU think we should just pull the cover over our heads because we were morons for so many years. Let's just let the whole country go to s**T because we were bad. Right? China is now drilling for oil off Key west......WE Can't.
We can't drill in Alaska. The Russians are looking to drill under the north pole. We can't use shale oil near the Rocky Mt. Canada can in there country.We can't build new nuclear plants or new oil refineries because of the cost due to pollution controls. Given this, i think we sould protect our sourses of oil around the world and we will. And, ah, i never, ever considered you a hyopcrate


GRANNY

Originally posted by duecer
are you serious? our dependance on foriegn oil is due to oil companies manipulating our government. we could have ended our dependance years ago if we had invested money in research, raised the cafe standard every 4 years, and made high effieciency heating and air conditioning equipment mandatory in all new contruction, and all retrofit applications for the l ...[text shortened]... can hardly site national security issues for what is clearly an issue of greed and incompitence.

even if all that is true, it doesn't change the fact that the US is very very dependent on foreign oil. woodacoodashooda stories don't change that fact.

Originally posted by smw6869
Yeah, let someone else die in your place....you pencil necked geek!

GRANNY.

If there was a need to kill, I'd kill, but the only reason I'd do so is to protect my home and loved ones from direct threat. 'Defending interests' 'pre-emptive strikes', patriotism and the self reciprocating culture/excuse for warfare as a means of combatting political means are none of those things. Do any of you pro-war guys really think that killing another person is excusable, except under extreme conditions and even then, is it reconcileable or forgettable? Have any of you done it and if so, did you manage to get on with your life?