09 Sep 04
1 edit
Originally posted by gumbieYou really don't get it. 🙂
I don't believe it's that personal. If that many other people believed foxes could have an opinion they woud have been given the right to vote by now.
Foxes don't require human approval. They just need to be left alone to be foxes. Who the heck do you humans think that you are?
Do you think that foxes are sitting around all depressed because they cannot vote in human elections. *hee*hee* 😵
-Ray.
09 Sep 04
Originally posted by gumbiewell that was part of the reasoning used to prevent blacks and women from voting too - just that many people didn't believe that they should have an opinion.
I don't believe it's that personal. If that many other people believed foxes could have an opinion they woud have been given the right to vote by now.
now you may be unaware of 3 decades of research on animal cognition that overturns your reluctance to give any 'human' characteristics to animals even though they seem to have all the hardware in place and even though the software causes them to function in remarkably similar ways, but surely you can recognize that a fox really takes objection to being killed, just like most reasonable creatures. do they really have to take a vote, in order to show this to you?
in friendship,
prad
09 Sep 04
Originally posted by pradtfWell maybe we should go about this another way. How or in what way can you justify concluding that foxes have OPINIONS, look at the word it is important, I am not questioning anything else stated in the thread.
well that was part of the reasoning used to prevent blacks and women from voting too - just that many people didn't believe that they should have an opinion.
now you may be unaware of 3 decades of research on animal cognition that overturns your reluctance to give any 'human' characteristics to animals even though they seem to have all the hardware in p ...[text shortened]... tures. do they really have to take a vote, in order to show this to you?
in friendship,
prad
09 Sep 04
Originally posted by pradtfLeft with no cull you would be surprised look at the recent increases in urban foxes.
i don't really think we are in danger of being overrun by a fox population explosion.
in friendship,
prad
Anyway I feel I need to be more informed for this forum so I am reading the Burns report : http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/mainsections/huntingreport.htm
This has to be looked at objectively - that foxes are "nice and furry" doesn't cut it.
09 Sep 04
Originally posted by Mat KelleyThere need not be any other options. Just live your live and let other live theirs. This is the basic axiom.
If you believe hunting is cruel what are the other options? Hunting is not just about sport it is also used to control the fox population this will continue. What are the options for killing foxes?
Why are you so worried about the fox population? I suggest that you start worrying about the human population. What are the options for controlling the human population?
-Ray.
09 Sep 04
1 edit
Originally posted by Mat KelleyMat, you do realize that your argument can used almost word for word to describe human over-population:
Left with no cull you would be surprised look at the recent increases in urban humans.
This has to be looked at objectively - that humans are "nice and furry" doesn't cut it.
Your modified post is above.
-Ray.
09 Sep 04
Originally posted by Mat Kelley"If fox-hunting is banned, more foxes will die."
Again I ask the question do you believe that banning hunting will reduce the number of foxes being killed?
"Fox-hunting is the most efficient way to kill a fox."
"Even hunting one fox at a time gives jobs to dozens of people."
"Fox hunters are considered good value for money by farmers."
"Fox-hunting is just a traditional rural pastime, like golf. If the government bans this, next they'll be banning Morris dancing."
"Fox-hunting is an unfortunate but necessary procedure to deal with vermin."
How many of these statements is true?
I don't really know how efficient and humane other methods are compared to fox-hunting. But I would find it hard to believe that, if a group of scientists were charged with finding the best way of killing foxes humanely, they'd conclude that fox-hunting in its current form cannot be improved upon, or only minor refinements can be made. It is simply preposterous that hunting the fox with a pack of 60 hounds, numerous men on horses and at most a 1/3 success rate is ideal or anywhere close.
09 Sep 04
2 edits
Originally posted by gumbiei used the word opinion because that is what was asked of us in the first post.
Well maybe we should go about this another way. How or in what way can you justify concluding that foxes have OPINIONS, look at the word it is important, I am not questioning anything else stated in the thread.
if you would prefer to use a different word, because 'opinion' for a human may not be attributable to a fox since we really don't seem to have a way of finding out, that is fine.
the point is that a fox makes quite the effort fighting to stay alive against some pretty serious odds.
it is logical to conclude that it really wants to stay alive.
in that, it shares a rather basic need with us.
this we can understand even if we can't put a finger on the fox's 'opinion'.
[aside: you may be interested to know that fear of anthropomorphism (the attributing of human characteristics to animals) has plagued scientists for quite some time for various reasons despite evidence provided by the likes of darwin more than 100 yrs ago to the contrary. some of the major breakthroughs in this area were made by jane goodall, who despite ridicule by many factions of the scientific community for her ideas that 'primates r people too', has changed the milieu of the community significantly. ]
in friendship,
prad
09 Sep 04
1 edit
Originally posted by gumbieDefine "opinion". Just because foxes cannot vibrate their vocal chords in the same that humans can, doesn't imply that they are not able to communicate.
Well maybe we should go about this another way. How or in what way can you justify concluding that foxes have OPINIONS, look at the word it is important, I am not questioning anything else stated in the thread.
If you approached a fox with a baseball bat and lifted the bat up while staring wild-eyed at the fox, I'm sure that the fox would be of the opinion that it is a bad idea to stay where it is. This is the fox's opinion! The fox is stating that it does not wish to be hurt, and stating that it wishes to be elsewhere.
-Ray.
09 Sep 04
OK here are a couple of quotes - firstly I want to iterate I am not particulary Pro hunting but I am definitey not Anti hunting:
"Naturally, people ask whether we were implying that hunting is cruel... The short answer to that question is no. There was not sufficient verifiable evidence or data safely to reach views about cruelty." (Lord Burns, co-author of the Burns Report, House of Lords debate 12th March 2001)
"At no point did the committee conclude, or even attempt to conclude, an assessment of cruelty Yet many bodies have erroneously - I repeat the word "erroneously" - quoted the Burns Report, stating that it clearly demonstrated that the practice of hunting wild animals with dogs caused cruelty The report did not state that." (Lord Soulsby, co-author of the Burns Report, House of Lords debate 12th March 2001)
"If hunting were subject to a ban, I have little doubt that at least an equivalent number of foxes, deer and hares would be killed by other means. The number of deaths is not likely to be reduced by banning hunting. " (Lord Burns, House of Lords debate 12th March 2001)
I have not doubt that there are similar anti hunting quotes but worth considering especiallyas the original post specifically mentioned "cruel sport"
Mat
09 Sep 04
Originally posted by Alpha10It does take a lot of athleticism to ride cross country😉
Fox hunting is not a sport. Sport takes athletic ability, thats why they are sometimes called ATHLETICS. How much athleticism does it take to pull a trigger? I admit, hunting is tough, but dont consider it a sport because its not.
09 Sep 04
Originally posted by pradtfOk we seem to be understanding each other now 🙂. I would rather say that it has the instinct to survive than that it wants to stay alive.
i used the word opinion because that is what was asked of us in the first post.
if you would prefer to use a different word, because 'opinion' for a human may not be attributable to a fox since we really don't seem to have a way of finding out, that is fine.
the point is that a fox makes quite the effort fighting to stay alive against some pretty serio ...[text shortened]... ople too', has changed the milieu of the community significantly. ]
in friendship,
prad
And on the foxhunting issue, I understand that most of the foxes hunted in this fashion actually escape, how does this control the population?