08 Aug 07
1 edit
Originally posted by AttilaTheHornThis "Valsalva Maneuver" you talk about is merely the act of "clearing your ears" when the ambient air pressure changes, like when diving or flying, that's all. It has nothing to do with childbirth or defecation (good grief) OR playing an instrument or singing.
Holding your breath is not an example of the use of the diaphragm. when doing so, you're just not engaging the intercostal muscles and you are simply blocking the release of air with the tongue or the glottis, or by not relaxing the diaphragm. What you don't want in singing or in playing any wind instrument is for the Valsalva Maneuver to kick in. What ...[text shortened]... n through the use of the fifth cranial nerve. Think "air in motion," not muscular activilty.
When your music teacher says "ok, again, but this time, from the diaphragm", what he means is "from the internal intercostal muscles", but if he said that, no one would know what he's talking about.
"Air in motion" my butt. Forced exhalation IS caused by muscular activity, and this is achieved through the internal intercostal muscles and the abdominal muscles (the "abs" ). People say the diaphragm, because (a) it's easier to say than "internal intercostal muscles" and (b) other people know what they mean when they say it.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by AttilaTheHornHolding your breath is an example of the conscious nonuse of your diaphragm, the operative word being "conscious" and not involuntary. Perhaps a more straightforward example is just varying your breathing rate, which includes flexing and relaxing the diaphragm to your chosen rhythm.
Holding your breath is not an example of the use of the diaphragm. when doing so, you're just not engaging the intercostal muscles and you are simply blocking the release of air with the tongue or the glottis, or by not relaxing the diaphragm. What you don't want in singing or in playing any wind instrument is for the Valsalva Maneuver to kick in. What ...[text shortened]... n through the use of the fifth cranial nerve. Think "air in motion," not muscular activilty.
I do agree that you don't want to perform the Valsalva Maneuver when singing or playing, but the Valsalva Maneuver is performed by forcibly trying to expel air with your mouth and nose pinched shut, which forces air into your middle ear through the Eustachian tube (the little tube that connects your mouth to your ear). It's hard to do when your mouth and nose are wide open.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by SuzianneDo you sing too Suzianne? I guess I shouldn't say "too", I'm still learning, but whatever.
This "Valsalva Maneuver" you talk about is merely the act of "clearing your ears" when the ambient air pressure changes, like when diving or flying, that's all. It has nothing to do with childbirth or defecation (good grief) OR playing an instrument or singing.
When your music teacher says "ok, again, but this time, from the diaphragm", what he means is ...[text shortened]... intercostal muscles" and (b) other people know what they mean when they say it.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by SuzianneThe main muscle used in breathing is the Diaphram, thats fact, whether it is in singing, swimming, running etc, all other muscles aids in the breathing process, like the intercostals (internal and external), scalene, obliques, abdominals.
This "Valsalva Maneuver" you talk about is merely the act of "clearing your ears" when the ambient air pressure changes, like when diving or flying, that's all. It has nothing to do with childbirth or defecation (good grief) OR playing an instrument or singing.
When your music teacher says "ok, again, but this time, from the diaphragm", what he means is ...[text shortened]... intercostal muscles" and (b) other people know what they mean when they say it.
The intercostals actually help in the movement of the ribcage and not the soul cause of breathing.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by PBE6Im not a doctor but studied human biology for a while. I also have 4 generations of nurses in my family!! 😛
It seems like not one of us knows exactly what he or she is talking about. Is there a doctor in the house?!?
My own conclusions may be frowned upon but the account is what my one brain cell can remember! 😉
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by rmackenYou may actually be right, I have no idea. I just wanted someone with some "old-schooled street cred" to weigh in.
Im not a doctor but studied human biology for a while. I also have 4 generations of nurses in my family!! 😛
My own conclusions may be frowned upon but the account is what my one brain cell can remember! 😉
08 Aug 07
1 edit
Originally posted by rmackenYes, the main muscle used in breathing is, indeed, the diaphragm, but the issue here is *forced exhalation* (i.e. singing and playing a wind instrument), in which the diaphragm plays no part.
The main muscle used in breathing is the Diaphram, thats fact, whether it is in singing, swimming, running etc, all other muscles aids in the breathing process, like the intercostals (internal and external), scalene, obliques, abdominals.
The intercostals actually help in the movement of the ribcage and not the soul cause of breathing.
And I did not say the internal intercostal muscles are the sole tool for breathing. I did say that they and the abdominal muscles are what is primarily used for *forced exhalation*.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by Suzianne*Forced exhalation* (only sped read your post!)
Yes, the main muscle used in breathing is, indeed, the diaphragm, but the issue here is *forced exhalation* (i.e. singing and playing a wind instrument), in which the diaphragm plays no part.
And I did not say the internal intercostal muscles are the sole tool for breathing. I did say that they and the abdominal muscles are what is primarily used for *forced exhalation*.
I apologise, you are right, for FORCED exhalation then yes, its the intercostals and abdominals.
🙂
08 Aug 07
I studied with arguably the foremost expert in the world on playing a brass instrument and he was often invited to speak at medical conventions, althought he was not a doctor. However, I have consulted several doctors in composing my thesis, and I have played at the highest levels for more than 40 years. The fact is that the diaphragm is an involuntary muscle and essentially plays no role in expelling air, only in taking it in. As my teacher preached, "Breathe in order to expand, not expand in order to breathe." It's all about "wind and song," to use his expression. It works, because it does not fight against the body's natural way of doing things. Watch and study how a baby breathes. It's beautiful. But we must learn not to let our mind get in the way. That's not so easy.
08 Aug 07
1 edit
Originally posted by AttilaTheHornWhat doctor told you that you can't control your diaphragm? It's obviously not the case.
I studied with arguably the foremost expert in the world on playing a brass instrument and he was often invited to speak at medical conventions, althought he was not a doctor. However, I have consulted several doctors in composing my thesis, and I have played at the highest levels for more than 40 years. The fact is that the diaphragm is an involuntary t's beautiful. But we must learn not to let our mind get in the way. That's not so easy.
Who was the expert you studied with? Just curious. I'm sure he's the one to go see if you are interested in learning to play a horn, and his singing is probably pretty good too. I'm sure your playing/singing is excellent as well. But "breathe in order to expand, not expand in order to breathe" is backwards. Expanding the diaphragm creates a region of low pressure in the lungs and air rushes in, not the other way 'round. As for watching how a baby breathes, they don't do anything different than what the rest of us do while we're asleep (you can watch your loved one's abdomen take over from the chest when they fall asleep).
Like most instruction techniques for body movement you can't see directly, it's more visualization than physics. In fact, after discussing singing on this forum, I'm sure many of the techniques vocal and wind teachers teach as fact are really visualization techniques to help your body get the right movement. Visualization is an important part of learning to control your body however, so I have no problem with that. It would just be nice to know exactly how things work sometimes.
EDIT: I'm definitely not trying to knock you, or your teacher, or my teacher. Results are results! I'm just curious about the real inner workings.