08 Aug 07
Originally posted by PBE6My teacher was Arnold Jacobs of the Chicago Symphony. He passed away in 1997 at the age of 82. This idea that the diaphragm is an involuntarey muscle can be controversial, but I believe it is, and I've had doctors confirm that for me. "Jake," as he was known, eventually convinced me of that. What it all comes down to is "air in motion." If you don't have air in motion, you have nothing. The vocal chords will only vibrate when air is moving through them, so we must take full, unobstructed breaths, but when pushing air out, do not harden the abdominal area. This is the "fight-or-flight" symdrome and that's no good. Use the intercostals and keep the abdominal area loose, like Santa Clause and his "bowlfull of jelly." Think music, not muscular activity, i.e., don't ask questions; make statgements. Yes, you breathe in order to expand, not the other way around.
What doctor told you that you can't control your diaphragm? It's obviously not the case.
Who was the expert you studied with? Just curious. I'm sure he's the one to go see if you are interested in learning to play a horn, and his singing is probably pretty good too. I'm sure your playing/singing is excellent as well. But "breathe in order to expand, not ...[text shortened]... teacher. Results are results! I'm just curious about the real inner workings.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn1. The diaphragm is not an involuntary muscle. If it were, you could not take a breath on command. You can. Apparently, it's classified as neither voluntary nor involuntary, which means it doesn't correspond exactly to either definition (i.e. it can be operated under both conscious and unconscious control). Here is a note to that effect written by John Messmer, MD, Medical Director, Penn State Geisinger Health Group, Palmyra, PA.
My teacher was Arnold Jacobs of the Chicago Symphony. He passed away in 1997 at the age of 82. This idea that the diaphragm is an involuntarey muscle can be controversial, but I believe it is, and I've had doctors confirm that for me. "Jake," as he was known, eventually convinced me of that. What it all comes down to is "air in motion." If you don't ha ...[text shortened]... ns; make statgements. Yes, you breathe in order to expand, not the other way around.
http://chanteur.net/contribu/cJMdiaph.htm
2. The abdominal area is large and contains several muscle groups, many of which contribute to exhalation (the intercostals in the chest are not the only ones). Specific flexing of the abdominal muscles and the diaphragm is necessary to sing. I agree that "sing from the diaphragm" probably only makes sense as a visualization technique and not a physical explanation, but the diaphragm is used along with the abdominal muscles to put your body into the proper position to make sound. You can watch and/or ask any singer you know what happens to their abdomen while singing. Actually, this would be a great thing to do because then we could have something observable to discuss.
3. The phrase "don't ask questions, make statements" is inane. If no one asked questions, we wouldn't have the right answers.
4. I agree that "think music, not muscular activity" is indeed the goal. Of course, in order to master your muscles you need to concentrate on them. Once the movements have been learned, I agree you can forget about them and get on with the business of making music freely.
5. Fluids flow down a pressure gradient. When you breathe, your diaphragm and several other muscles contract and/or relax to increase the volume of your lungs, thereby creating a low pressure region into which the air (at a higher pressure) flows. And yes, you can expand without breathing. Try expelling all the air from your lungs, close your mouth and pinch your nose, then expand your ribcage and flex your diaphragm. Try it with a small amount of air in your lungs. Try it after taking a deep breath. It is always possible to expand, getting easier with an increasing amount of air in your lungs to start (due to a reduced pressure difference across your lung tissue, outside to inside). As a visualization technique, I have no problem with "breathe in order to expand". As a physical explanation, it is wrong unless someone sticks an air hose in your mouth.
Anyway, it seems we have a ways to go before we get to the bottom of this.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by PBE6I both agree and disagree with some of what you say. I think that we should realize that actual performance is very phychological. While it of course is physical and muscular activity is involved, concentrating on that often tends to lead to "paralysis by analysis," like the fable of when the centipede was asked which leg he moved first, thought about it and promptly fell down. A great deal of visualization is necessary, as it is in the performance of sports. So when I say, "Breathe in order to expand," I'm emphasizing the goal and not the means to get there.
1. The diaphragm is not an involuntary muscle. If it were, you could not take a breath on command. You can. Apparently, it's classified as neither voluntary nor involuntary, which means it doesn't correspond exactly to either definition (i.e. it can be operated under both conscious and unconscious control). Here is a note to that effect written by John Mes ...[text shortened]... mouth.
Anyway, it seems we have a ways to go before we get to the bottom of this.
Nevertheless, we do have a ways to go. -- Interesting and respectful discussion. It's on a higher level than most I read here.
08 Aug 07
Originally posted by AttilaTheHornAgreed. 🙂 I have a vocal lesson tonight, so I might ask a few well chosen questions.
I both agree and disagree with some of what you say. I think that we should realize that actual performance is very phychological. While it of course is physical and muscular activity is involved, concentrating on that often tends to lead to "paralysis by analysis," like the fable of when the centipede was asked which leg he moved first, thought about ...[text shortened]... o. -- Interesting and respectful discussion. It's on a higher level than most I read here.
09 Aug 07
2 edits
as someone who cannot sing but has a relatively musical ear i can tell you one thing-that i have had lessons off of my girlfriend (someone who can sing extremly, and has lessons etc.) and i still can't sing. in fact, i have been informed i can't sing by a former st pauls choir boy who was the lead soloist in a choir boy super group! in short, some people just can't sing, even if they have a musical ear. i can tell if others are in tune, i just can't tell if i am...
EDIT: but don't let me stop you! how will you find out if you don't try? also, even though i can't sing i sing all the time. i find it enjoyable, even if nobody else does. there's nothing like a little sing-song in the car. 🙂 so you should learn to sing so that others find it as enjoyable as you do...
