Originally posted by chancremechanicNice to know freedom is not incompatible with keeping a human being as a possesion. A lot of us in the rest of the world hear George W talk about bringing freedom to the world and we were never very sure what he means. In your country, children were bought and sold, woman raped and men beaten and killed for objecting - slavery was part of your legal system. Once the slaves were finally freed, they were segragated in the army, in schools and discriminated against everywhere else. Descendents of slaves were lynched for looking at a white woman or for straying into a white area - while sheriffs made no arrests and juries refused to convict. During my lifetime, they were denied the vote and beaten for sitting in the front of a bus.
Yeah, it included that...the US is not perfect like New Zealand is 🙄 Why don't you mention that it was AFRICAN Kings that also sold their people into slavery....I acknowledge that slavery was wrong, what's your excuse...all civilizations exploited slavery from Egypt to current day Africa, where they are STILL selling their people into slavery, but ...[text shortened]... specifically in the 1940s, your country's freedom was also guaranteed oh thankless one!! 😲 🙄
Still, why should that stop you from claiming to be a country of 225 years of freedom? It certainly makes it easier for the rest of us - why shouldn't even those African countries who still keep slaves claim to be shining lights of freedom as well? As you point out, no-one is perfect.
Originally posted by timtimSure. You are going to make a fine soldier and you will be appreciated by the country's leader as you defend fredom in his country.
Are my career choices that limited? No, they are not, because my future is in my hands. I want to serve because I believe it is the right thing to do.
timtim
And that country's leader will probably be the leader of Iraq. Based on Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, he will be a corrupt and brutal individual and the freedoms you will be protecting will be the freedom of religious zealots not to be disturbed by seeing a woman drive a car, attend university, or leave a house without a male relative and wearing a circus tent. He won't trust Iraqis to protect him and you won't trust your Arab allies to be behind you in a firefight either. Unlike you he will sleep in an airconditioned palace and not a tent, and he will steal more in an afternoon than you make in a couple of years service.
And no. I am not a Moslem
Originally posted by steerpikeAs a soldier I would do what I am told to do knowing that while am there fighting my family is able to sleep at night knowing that they will not be harmed by any foreign militaries, it is not a matter of what their leader is doing, it matters what I am doing to me.
Sure. You are going to make a fine soldier and you will be appreciated by the country's leader as you defend fredom in his country.
And that country's leader will probably be the leader of Iraq. Based on Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, he w ...[text shortened]... in a couple of years service.
And no. I am not a Moslem
I have said it once and I will say it again. Don't lecture me, I will make my own decision. You see, my own, because I have the freedom to do that. I just wanted to let people know what I thought of it. I realize as a 15 year old 'kid' that what I think doesn't matter to anyone else and that my beliefs have many faults. You don't have to tell me that because I already know.
regards
Sean
Originally posted by timtimYour family may be able to sleep at night, but what about the families of the country you are attacking? Are they not allowed to sleep at night because someone from your country disagrees with someone or something from their's?
As a soldier I would do what I am told to do knowing that while am there fighting my family is able to sleep at night knowing that they will not be harmed by any foreign militaries,
Put yourself in the shoes of the suffering, and see how you becoming a soldier would benefit them.
Originally posted by timtimYes, ideal soldier material. That is why they like young fellows like you in the army - you don't ask too many inconvenient questions. Like why your last two presidents let patriotic young chaps like you die in Vietnam in their place while they kept well clear of the dirt and danger.
As a soldier I would do what I am told to do
I have said it once and I will say it again. Don't lecture me, I will make my own decision. You see, my own, because I have the freedom to do that. I just wanted to let people know what I thought of it. I realize as a 15 year old 'kid' that what I think doesn't matter to anyone else and that my beliefs have many faults. You don't have to tell me that because I already know.
regards
Sean
Originally posted by DreamlaXThose families wouldn't matter to me. It is their government's decision that brought them to that point. If you and your government thinks what we are doing is wrong, why don't they try and stop us?
Your family may be able to sleep at night, but what about the families of the country you are attacking? Are they not allowed to sleep at night because someone from your country disagrees with someone or something from their's?
Put yourself in the shoes of the suffering, and see how you becoming a soldier would benefit them.
I am an American, so what matters to me is America. It is not our fault they have to live the way they are, it is their government's.
Originally posted by steerpikeAnd proud that I am ideal soldier material.
Yes, ideal soldier material. That is why they like young fellows like you in the army - you don't ask too many inconvenient questions. Like why your last two presidents let patriotic young chaps like you die in Vietnam in their place while they kept well clear of the dirt and danger.
Also, Vietnam was before my time. I didn't say that our country has always made the right decision but none the less I shall always stand by it. If you had a son and he was accused of raping someone. Would you stand by him and help him through it or would you give him up and act like you never had a son? Most likely, you would stand by him all the way. Whether it is a good decision or a bad one, I will always stand by my government just as you would stand by yours.
regards
Sean
Originally posted by timtimThe myth that Muslims are supposed to kill infidels and this is happening in Iraq has been stated here several times. Like much of what is posted about Moslems, it is wrong.
Can I ask you something, are you Muslim? Well, according to the Muslim religion, anyone thought to be an infadel according to the Muslims is supposed to be killed. Well, if you are not Muslim, then you are an infadel. Do you think if you ...[text shortened]... same bridges that our soldiers would be hanging from.
timtim
Saddam's deputy and Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz is a Chaldean Catholic. There are hundreds of thousands of Christians, living in Iraq and elsewhere in the middle east. They have lived and worshipped for close on 1500 years within a majority Muslim population.
If I was to go to Iraq, I would be a target for insurgents. To enter a war zone and work is to take sides - I would be aiding the occupiers and this is the insurgent's reason for the killing. Being a Muslim would not protect me.
Originally posted by timtimI would certainly stand by my son if he was a rapist. But I would not lie for him or provide the means for him to continue his crimes. I would be bound to report my suspicions and knowledge to the police - for the good of my son as well as the people I live with.
And proud that I am ideal soldier material.
If you had a son and he was accused of raping someone. Would you stand by him and help him through it or would you give him up and act like you never had a son? Most likely, you would stand by him all the way. Whether it is a good decision or a bad one, I will always stand by my government just as you would stand by yours.
regards
Sean
When he returns - perhaps from jail - there would still be a place for him in my house. If he was discussed in public, I would hang my head in shame because he would have brought disgrace on me and my family. I would always feel my actions have led to his actions.
I know some of this because I have had to support family members in court.
Besides, say that tanks do come rolling through my town, our military is made up of our citizens, do you think we would just let them roll through our town untouched. My father, my grandfather, along with many uncles were in the military. Those tanks would not survive.
I think you missed what was trying to be said here, but you have illustrated it very well. Of course tanks form Iraq in the US will not happen. You were being asked to imagine how you'd feel if it did happen and you responded to say that you'd blow those tanks up. If that would be your reaction you cannot blame the Iraqies who blow up American tanks can you?
But we have honor. We wouldn't pull them out of their tanks and cut their heads off or take them out and hang them from bridges.
you may have honour, but are you trying to say that no one in the US would do these kind of things? Maybe not your average man, but how about the extreemists such as the gangs and the fashists? Can you vouch for their honour? Or would they love to be seen by the world to be killing a filthy Muslim?
After the pictures of how the soldiers mistreated and killed Iraqi prisoners I do not think you can claim that all US people will act with honour.
according to the Muslim religion, anyone thought to be an infadel according to the Muslims is supposed to be killed.
this is taken out of context and does not do justice to the Islamic faith. Yes, there is one section that rants about infidels and this is often quoted by extreemists, but most of the Koran teachs peace and equality between races. To show how wrongly things can be read if taken outof context I'll take an example from the Bible.
Levicus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
This is from a long long list of why people should be killed, but Christians don't regularly kill people for such acts. Not recently anyway.
I'm 15 and just wanted to tell everyone my views. I didn't care to here anyone's opinions on what I thought.
you're views are as valid as the next mans and I'm gladyou expressed them. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean that you were wrong or wrong to express them. I'd be a shame however if you don't care what other people are saying in response because it is by listening to how other people feel that we understand more.
I know I don't know everything and that many of you are smarter and know more about it than I do.
This is probably the most profound thing you say here. Believe me, by knowing that you don't know everything you've just marked yourself as smarter than most people 🙂
Originally posted by timtimIt is ignorance like this that creates war in the first place!
Those families wouldn't matter to me. It is their government's decision that brought them to that point. If you and your government thinks what we are doing is wrong, why don't they try and stop us?
I am an American, so what matters to me is America. It is not our fault they have to live the way they are, it is their government's.
my apologies for not reading all the poasts, i have to go to dinner.
on the matter of complaining about america and acepting freedom nonetheless, we arn't complaining about the freedoms we have, but rather the ones we dont. thats vauge. i have the folloing complaint, which sums up a lot of smaller things:
the size of orginisations is inversly propotinal to the freedoms of pepole. Fact: orginisations (governments and corperations primarily) are growing bigger. the us, the uk, just about everywhere. i'm not afraid of war or crime or brutality, mankind has lived whith these for millenia (i will admint that i have never experienced the full brunt of any of them) and we have survived. i am concerned that we are trading these for stagnancy, medeocracy, and conformity. democracy dose not prevent opression, and opression comes in very subtle forms
>I think you missed what was trying to be said here, but you have illustrated it very well. Of course tanks form Iraq in the US will not happen. You were being asked to imagine how you'd feel if it did happen and you responded to say that you'd blow those tanks up. If that would be your reaction you cannot blame the Iraqies who blow up American tanks can you?<
I don't blame the Iraqies for blowing up American tanks. We are at war, they have just as much right to blow up our tanks as we do theirs.
>you may have honour, but are you trying to say that no one in the US would do these kind of things? Maybe not your average man, but how about the extreemists such as the gangs and the fashists? Can you vouch for their honour? Or would they love to be seen by the world to be killing a filthy Muslim?
After the pictures of how the soldiers mistreated and killed Iraqi prisoners I do not think you can claim that all US people will act with honour.<
Sorry I put it that way, you are right, many people in America just as in Iraq are tyrants but our troops did not hang their's from bridges and burn them or cut their heads off for the world to see. Yes, what our troops did to some of their prisoners was wrong but it was nothing compared to what they did to ours. The majority of us are not proud of what our troops did to some of their prisoners but after the beheading tape, they were all frustrated. Had they not beheaded that man then our troops would not have humiliated them.
>this is taken out of context and does not do justice to the Islamic faith. Yes, there is one section that rants about infidels and this is often quoted by extreemists, but most of the Koran teachs peace and equality between races. To show how wrongly things can be read if taken outof context I'll take an example from the Bible.
Levicus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
This is from a long long list of why people should be killed, but Christians don't regularly kill people for such acts. Not recently anyway.<
I was stupid to write that. I don't have a clue about Muslim religion. I understand what about Levicus 20:10. I still believe these people should be tried and put to death but our government no longer has anything to do with religion. So if someone just killed them for it they would be tried.
>I'd be a shame however if you don't care what other people are saying in response because it is by listening to how other people feel that we understand more.<
Another teenager's mistake. I should not have wrote that, but I knew there was going to be alot of negative feedback.
>I know I don't know everything and that many of you are smarter and know more about it than I do.
This is probably the most profound thing you say here. Believe me, by knowing that you don't know everything you've just marked yourself as smarter than most people 🙂<
ty.
regards and best wishes,
Sean