Is Howard Dean finished?

Originally posted by Acolyte
I meant left-wing by the American standards of their day. Have you considered moving to Sweden?

I wouldn't mind moving to Sweden, if a realistic chance presented itself. Sweden is very near the top of the list of what I consider to be the "best" countries in the world. I think they have the right idea.

Originally posted by rwingett
I wouldn't mind moving to Sweden, if a realistic chance presented itself. Sweden is very near the top of the list of what I consider to be the "best" countries in the world. I think they have the right idea.

And you could start the Swedish Clan. : )

Originally posted by kirksey957
And you could start the Swedish Clan. : )

More likely would be that he start three levels of Secret Police, he of course being in charge of the "bureau of correct thinking". Then Rob could finally feel good knowing he had found his TRUE left wing party at last. A party that is truly revolutionary and forward-looking and not encumbered by humanity and such frail notions as religion and republic, and individuallity. Not to mention he could do away with those terrible people who exploit us by hauling coal out of mines. Coal that is not even owned by the State! Damn. And the factories that use the coal! He could confiscate them and thus finally defeat Maggie Thatcher! That would sure be a great party... huh Rob.

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
More likely would be that he start three levels of Secret Police, he of course being in charge of the "bureau of correct thinking". Then Rob could finally feel good knowing he had found his TRUE left wing party at last. A party that is truly revolutionary and forward-looking and not encumbered by humanity and such frail notions as religion and republi ...[text shortened]... scate them and thus finally defeat Maggie Thatcher! That would sure be a great party... huh Rob.

Not to mention all the big buxum beautiful blondes.

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
More likely would be that he start three levels of Secret Police, he of course being in charge of the "bureau of correct thinking". Then Rob could finally feel good knowing he had found his TRUE left wing party at last. A party that is truly revolutionary and forward-looking and not encumbered by humanity and such frail notions as religion and republi ...[text shortened]... scate them and thus finally defeat Maggie Thatcher! That would sure be a great party... huh Rob.

Why three levels of secret police?
What have coal mines got to do with anything?
Your tangents are a little too abstract for me this time, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by rwingett
Why three levels of secret police?
What have coal mines got to do with anything?
Your tangents are a little too abstract for me this time, I'm afraid.

Why three? Because that is the level of paranoia that all attempts at 'the perfect socialist state' HAVE produced. I simply looked at history (and current affairs in existing communist states) and put forth the obvious. Why would your "perfect state" be any different? Tried EMailing any friends in Cuba the past week? Don't bother. Brother Fidel has started monitoring incoming for "insurgents" and the internet (in cuba) is a thing of the past now. (See New York Times).

By the way, the three levels are "Interior Guard", "Party Guard" and "Peoples Guard". The "Peoples Guard" are in charge of keeping the military in line. All three kill and feed on each other. Just study all existing and failed communist nations. This isn't rocket science. It IS racket science, however. Thugs by any other name...

Coal mines have everything to do with it. They are the idiom that most clearly signifies the difference between our natural condition (greed) and "the perfect state". In the perfect state, would not all resources be owned by "all the people"? Doesn't that translate into "those who absolutely control the government, OWN the resource"? If not... how many district managers dared to tell Stalin to go to hell because the mines in his district belong to the "people"? I'm thinking that if there were any such brave souls, they became very dead brave souls.

Proposition: Be it resolved that all public lands shall be sold to individuals, and that only private citizens can own property which is IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Proposition: Be it resolved that all private industry be confiscated by government and only the federal government can own property which is IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Public Domain is defined here as "That property, usually Real, that resides and is used in public ways for the betterment of society. Examples are mines, reservoirs, rivers,streams and lakes, as well as all forests and lands not used specifically for residential housing and/or farming by individuals."

I don't even have to ask which of these you espouse. So again, just back to bold, old ideas that have brought nothing but murder and misery to the earth. Socialism. In particular that section wherein private property and business are verboten. I know it isn't stylish to say it, but that is just "Communism". Call it "Green" or "Pink" or "Progressive Democracy" or whatever. I agree with Orwell as to the evil of euphamism. I say again... "Just a bunch of worn out Commies." I say it not to be cute, but to make the point that we have plenty of history to show what happens when we get lazy and fail to recognize stupidity for what it is. The world has made plenty of mistakes with communism. Lets not be deceived by "Communism-Lite". It's the same old hash.

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
Why three? Because that is the level of paranoia that all attempts at 'the perfect socialist state' HAVE produced. I simply looked at history (and current affairs in existing communist states) and put forth the obvious. Why would yo ...[text shortened]... s not be deceived by "Communism-Lite". It the same old hash.

Just study all existing and failed communist nations...

You are apparently incapable of conceiving of socialism except in Stalinist terms. No matter how loudly I condemn Stalinism you come right back and start ranting and raving about Stalinism all over again. Nobody likes Stalin anymore, whether they be capitalist or socialist, so quit living in the past and get over it.

I agree with Orwell as to the evil of euphamism...

You must not know anything about Orwell, or you would know that he was a life-long socialist. He detested Stalinism, but unlike you he thought that it was possible to have a socialist system without descending into tyranny. He fought in the Spanish Civil War on the Republican (socialist) side as a member of the POUM (a Trotskyist militia). He was seriously wounded fighting the good fight against fascism.

I still not really sure what your tirade in conjunction with coal mines is about. But I do know that coal miners have been amongst the most heavily oppressed people in the history of capitalism.

Originally posted by rwingett
[b]Just study all existing and failed communist nations...

You are apparently incapable of conceiving of socialism except in Stalinist terms. No matter how loudly I condemn Stalinism you come right back and start ranting and raving about Stalinism all over again. Nobody likes Stalin anymore, whether they be capitalist or socialist, so quit living in ...[text shortened]... at coal miners have been amongst the most heavily oppressed people in the history of capitalism.[/b]

I would be more able to envision your wonderful world of communism if you could give me an example to look at. I must admit to a certain lack of imagination when it comes to fooling myself as you do. You as much as said that even Sweden isn't communist enough for you. Why don't you describe to us in detail what your perfect Socialist Nation would be like? I'll bet you don't because you don't know. You just have a foggy feel-good notion with no history or actual examples. If not... tell us where to look. Which history book contains your perfect society?

As to Orwell... Ahem! You missed it. I was digging you because even a socialist knows better than to mess with communism. Is there a communist state that hasn't "descended into tyranny"? You been hiding those revised history books again Rob? Shame on you. Bring them out so we can all read them.

As to the coal mines. Check your post history. You have stated several times that mines and industry should only be owned by the government. Maybe that was the cause of my use of them as examples in postings to you and about you. You think? And don't drive yourself ragged looking for the particulars that gave you away as a worn out commie. Just the net effect over time. Ain't it amazing that people who use the labors of the "most heavily oppressed people in the history of capitalism" to keep warm and own a vehicle are such hypocrits? Do you think your computer would be possible without the coal they produce? Would you be able to organize the young communist league without your computer? And phone? And Car? And house? Or apartment? Or your clothing? You want to help them? Stop supporting the use of coal! Geez! Rob! You old exploiter you. I expect you to dump all that crap in the trash and show some "Solidarity" with those poor chaps. What say, Rob. Gunna do it? I doubt it. And if you did, they would all be pissed. They probably make twice as much money as you do, although they are exploited and you are a good commie.

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
I would be more able to envision your wonderful world of communism if you could give me an example to look at. I must admit to a certain lack of imagination when it comes to fooling myself as you do. You as much as said that even Sweden isn't communist enough for you. Why don't you describe to us in detail what your perfect Socialist Nation would be l ...[text shortened]... make twice as much money as you do, although they are exploited and you are a good commie.

If I had to choose a system that exists at the present moment, I would choose Swedish style capitalism. I find it to be far preferable to American style capitalism.

There aren't very many good examples from the past to choose from, as you never seem to tire of noting. However, during the Spanish Civil War, the anarchists administered much of Catalonia (especially around Barcelona) before they were crushed by the Stalinists. For past systems, it was that Spanish anarchist movement that I think held the most promise. Orwell gives an excellent account of that period in his book Homage to Catalonia.

For theoretical future systems, I have long been partial to what is known as Anarcho-syndicalism. I'm not going to waste my time describing it to you. You can do a google search for it, if you really want. I can't guarantee that you'll come up with anything of value, though.

I regret to admit that I continue to find your tirade on coal mining to be virtually unintelligible. But please do not interpret this as an invitation to expound upon it further.