21 Jan 08
Originally posted by CrowleyI was agreeing with you.
Well, I wasn't really comparing it to a word processor, I was arguing that LaTeX is only really a tool 'serious' typesetting, where the run-of-the-mill word processor falls far short - as you rightly point out 😕
Adam was the one who pointed rhbTard towards LaTeX and I said it was an unnecessarily complicated tool for someone who seems to need only basic of ...[text shortened]... rn LaTeX in their spare time, by all means go for it, I was just showing the pros and cons...
Don't get defensive on me or my predator instincts will tell me you're on the ropes and I should pounce.
21 Jan 08
2 edits
Originally posted by PalynkaThe story goes as this mr. smarty pants: Donald Knuth, the tex inventor, was really dissatisfied with outpuf of his book: "The Art of Cientific Computing" so we went and made a program that absolutely produced the better output for a text. So the book was on computing and the art of making good programs. So I guess his primary aim wasn't exactly and easy way to typeset mathematical formulas. And if you are in doubt check the book and see the emphasis he gives on mathematical formulas in it.
The point of toilet paper is to wipe your bum, but that doesn't mean you can't make a ton of things with it.
Of course that Donald being trained in maths and physics certainly had those things in mind but his goal was much more general than that.
This modus operandi of yours is really getting bothersome you know. First you come with a know it all attitude, than after you are showed that the world is somewhat larger than waht you expected you respond with some wise ass remark. Please make yourself informed before you speak ok?
21 Jan 08
1 edit
Originally posted by adam warlockJust because probably you (like me) use it extensively in your everyday work doesn't mean that it's adequate for every type of work. On what LaTeX truly shines is on mathematical typesetting.
The story goes as this mr. smarty pants: Donald Knuth, the tex inventor, was really dissatisfied with outpuf of his book: "The Art of Cientific Computing" so we went and made a program that absolutely produced the better output for a text. So the book was on computing and the art of making good programs. So I guess his primary aim wasn't exactly and eas ...[text shortened]... ted you respond with some wise ass remark. Please make yourself informed before you speak ok?
Sure, it can do a lot of other things, but for a large number of professions the marginal gain of learning it is minimal. If you fail to see that WYSIWYG typesetting is much better for some professions, then it's you that needs to open your eyes.
Edit - And it's really sad that you take difference of opinions as an instant indication that the other person is either stupid, ignorant or a sophist. You already claimed that Crowley is an ignorant and now me. Sad, really.
21 Jan 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PalynkaI never claimed that Crowly was ignorant: I said he didn't know what LateX is about. Using LateX for a few years and not using its full possibilities it's not knowing LateX in my book. Because in that case I'd know a lot of stuff.
Just because probably you (like me) use it extensively in your everyday work doesn't mean that it's adequate for every type of work. On what LaTeX truly shines is on mathematical typesetting.
Sure, it can do a lot of other things, but for a large number of professions the marginal gain of learning it is minimal. If you fail to see that WYSIWYG typesetting orant or a sophist. You already claimed that Crowley is an ignorant and now me. Sad, really.
I only sugested LateX because rhb was interested in OpenSourse type of things. And no matter what you say LateX is much powerfull than that. I always said that for 2, 3 pages it probabily is too much but for bigger things it is best suited no doubt. If you have to write up a report I'd sugest LateX every day of the week. All formatting is done pronto and in absolutely the best way. Besides indexing, bibliography, cross-referencing all of that is done by the TeX engine alone. A lot of time saved and mental energy better spent on what's being written.
And yes you are a sophist and you don't impress me. I don't take different opinions as a sign of ignorance but you too clearly aren't making any justice to LateX. If you know it's capabilities you clearly aren't showing that you do. You are the one that goe around in the forum calling names to people. You even made a thread about the forum general idiots one time. I take different oppinions as a sign of discussion. Not in the bad sense but as clash and interchange of ideas.
21 Jan 08
Originally posted by adam warlockI never claimed that Crowly was ignorant: I said he didn't know what LateX is about.
I never claimed that Crowly was ignorant: I said he didn't know what LateX is about. Using LateX for a few years and not using its full possibilities it's knowing LateX in my book. Because in that case I'd know a lot of stuff.
I only sugested LateX because rhb was interested in OpenSourse type of things. And no matter what you say LateX is much powe ...[text shortened]... s as a sign of discussion. Not in the bad sense but as clash and interchange of ideas.
Right. And that's how you finished the discussion with him. Didn't even bother to argue anymore, just a simple 'You don't know what you're talking about' and Crowley intelligently backed off. What's the point? Now you're doing the same to me. Beating your own chest and claiming you "know a lot of stuff". I've been using LaTeX for both research papers and the beamer for slides, as well. I find it extremely useful for what I do. So what? It's anecdoctal evidence.
I only sugested LateX because rhb was interested in OpenSourse type of things. And no matter what you say LateX is much powerfull than that.
LaTeX is much more poweful than anything I can say? Wow. That's a good argument. I wonder if it actually means anything. Shall I take your word on this?
If you have to write up a report I'd sugest LateX every day of the week.
Depends on what type of report, doesn't it? WYSIWYG types have a lot of advantages, particularly when you want to change information within columns of large pre-set tables. Examples like this abound.
(...)you are(...)you don't(...). I don't (...) but you(...). If you (...)you clearly (...). You are (...). You even (...).
I take different oppinions as a sign of discussion. Not in the bad sense but as clash and interchange of ideas.
Right. I thought looking at arguments, not personal remarks, was how ideas were interchanged. Silly me.
21 Jan 08
Originally posted by PalynkaRight. And that's how you finished the discussion with him. Didn't even bother to argue anymore, just a simple 'You don't know what you're talking about' and Crowley intelligently backed off. What's the point? Now you're doing the same to me. Beating your own chest and claiming you "know a lot of stuff". I've been using LaTeX for both research papers and the beamer for slides, as well. I find it extremely useful for what I do. So what? It's anecdoctal evidence.
[b]I never claimed that Crowly was ignorant: I said he didn't know what LateX is about.
Right. And that's how you finished the discussion with him. Didn't even bother to argue anymore, just a simple 'You don't know what you're talking about' and Crowley intelligently backed off. What's the point? Now you're doing the same to me. Beating your own chest a ...[text shortened]... at arguments, not personal remarks, was how ideas were interchanged. Silly me.[/b]
First off my discussion with Crowley went further than that. I told him what I was thinking he was saying. He said I was wrong and then we continued. I guess you might have missed those posts. But just go back a few pages. If Crowley ever thought I was calling him ignorant theh I apologise to him. But what I said is that he didn't know what LateX is about. And for me that's not calling someone ignorant. There's a lot of stuff I don't know and on that I count all superficial knowledge I have. Of course we can disagree on what's superficial but that's another issue. And I already told why LateX would certainly be helpful even on just text documents or with documents with graphs or pictures. I don't think that learning new tools that certainly are useful is a waste of time but I may be wrong.
LaTeX is much more poweful than anything I can say? Wow. That's a good argument. I wonder if it actually means anything. Shall I take your word on this?
I think I already told some things on why is more powerful than you made believe. Once again just check my previous posts. Its purpose is not writting mathematical formulas as you wrongly and emphatically stated. Even claiming that the discusson of LateX and other word processors is stupid. So was this a sound argument of yours? saying that a discussion is stupid. In that case I agree that I didn't certainly present any arguments on this thread since I didn't categorised anyone or a discussion of being stupid. I even posted links to pages and things that are done with LateX and a manual so that people could judge for themselves of its merits. I think that I made my part on that. Certainly you don't want me to copy the things that are said on all the links I posted.
Depends on what type of report, doesn't it? WYSIWYG types have a lot of advantages, particularly when you want to change information within columns of large pre-set tables. Examples like this abound.
On this you are right. But the examples on were LateX gets the upperhand are even more abounding.
Right. I thought looking at arguments, not personal remarks, was how ideas were interchanged. Silly me.
I have shown lots of arguments it's not my fault you haven't read them. One more time I say for you to read my previous posts.
21 Jan 08
1 edit
Originally posted by adam warlockLook, you're just repeating the same arguments I already tackled, so I'll try to address explain the point of my arguments a bit more.
[b]Right. And that's how you finished the discussion with him. Didn't even bother to argue anymore, just a simple 'You don't know what you're talking about' and Crowley intelligently backed off. What's the point? Now you're doing the same to me. Beating your own chest and claiming you "know a lot of stuff". I've been using LaTeX for both research papers en't read them. One more time I say for you to read my previous posts.[/b]
1) It's a question of time constraints. rhb wants to learn something that will give him an edge in his career. I think that he'd spend his time better truly mastering things like spreadsheets, databases (including SQL) and Visual Basic. If he goes into banking or management, learning SAP is a heavy investment but it's really a plus.
2) LaTeX is very useful when you write things on your own. If you do maths, I'd go further and say LaTeX is pretty much essential. The thing is that in a corporate environment, where most official communications have pre-set typesettings, LaTeX is not really a big plus. And I think rhb would be more interested in what is important in a corporate environment
On this you are right. But the examples on were LateX gets the upperhand are even more abounding.
I don't really think that the relative weights of advantages and disadvantages are the same for everyone. This is my point from the start.
21 Jan 08
Adam, I think the point you are missing here is that people just don't want to learn complicated tools.
I know you'll say LaTeX isn't really complicated and I agree with you - I do programming, so for me it was always easy, but for the average office worker it's just a schlep.
The instant visual feedback from WYSIWYG apps, presented in an easy, comfortable way will just always be easier for the average user, no matter how much you tout accuracy of the end product.
Trust me, the average Joe does not give a hoot about quality, as long as they can quickly change the font, colour and text alignment.
21 Jan 08
Originally posted by PalynkaI repeated my arguments because you said I had no arguments and just distributed insults to anyone that disagreed with me. But I think that I said why I think that LateX isn't just about typesetting math.
Look, you're just repeating the same arguments I already tackled, so I'll try to address explain the point of my arguments a bit more.
1) It's a question of time constraints. rhb wants to learn something that will give him an edge in his career. I think that he'd spend his time better truly mastering things like spreadsheets, databases (including SQL) and ...[text shortened]... advantages and disadvantages are the same for everyone. This is my point from the start.
I never said to rhb that he had to use LateX. I talked to him about it and gave some online resources on it. I'm trust him to better judge if LateX is good for him or not according to those resource.
I didn't know what he did for a living and I talked about LateX given his interest on the opensource world. But again if it suits him or not, it is him to decide.
The thing is if you (the proverbial you) know how to use LateX it really beats any word processor. For day to day stuff I agree that it's like using cannons to kill flies but for bigger things it certainly wins.
I guess I have nothing more to say on this so I'm out of this thread.
21 Jan 08
Originally posted by CrowleyYeah I know that it is very hard to get people started on something new if doesn't pay off right away, but I was just dreaming away...
Adam, I think the point you are missing here is that people just don't want to learn complicated tools.
I know you'll say LaTeX isn't really complicated and I agree with you - I do programming, so for me it was always easy, but for the average office worker it's just a schlep.
The instant visual feedback from WYSIWYG apps, presented in an easy, comfortab ...[text shortened]... hoot about quality, as long as they can quickly change the font, colour and text alignment.
And if you ever thought that I called you ignorant just know that certainly wasn't my intention.