10 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneWhat defines that God?
You know, I really, really hate to intrude into this orgy of pride (one of the seven deadly sins, don'tcha know) and prejudice, but I simply must point out that Christianity and Islam worship the same God. The same God as the Jews. The God of Abraham.
If some Christian believe he is Triune and the Muslims don't, I fail to see how one can call that "the same God". The very essence of the God is different.
10 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by PalynkaI fail to see how your failure changes the truth.
What defines that God?
If some Christian believe he is Triune and the Muslims don't, I fail to see how one can call that "the same God". The very essence of the God is different.
It's the same dude, man. I didn't say they worship Him in the same way. Clearly, they don't. You are trying to define God by an inadequate standard, that of man.
Finally, man cannot change God. He is what He is. I know this may upset those who place themselves above Him, but hey, too bad. The facts remain.
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneWhat facts? There are no facts here. Only faith. That's how the game works.
I fail to see how your failure changes the truth.
It's the same dude, man. I didn't say they worship Him in the same way. Clearly, they don't. You are trying to define God by an inadequate standard, that of man.
Finally, man cannot change God. He is what He is. I know this may upset those who place themselves above Him, but hey, too bad. The facts remain.
10 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneIf they disagree as to the nature of God, then they can't consciously be doing the same thing. If they agree that they are worshipping the same being but cannot define it, they don't know what they're worshipping.
Excuse me?
The fact is that Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same God.
Not awake yet?
- We all worship the God of Abraham!
- What is the nature of the God of Abraham?
- He, uh, is-what-He-is.
- Meaning?
- ...
Please formulate one declarative sentence containing 'God' and expressing a fact.
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneI think the bottle of water in my desk is the God that talked to Abraham. Is it the same God?
I fail to see how your failure changes the truth.
It's the same dude, man. I didn't say they worship Him in the same way. Clearly, they don't. You are trying to define God by an inadequate standard, that of man.
Finally, man cannot change God. He is what He is. I know this may upset those who place themselves above Him, but hey, too bad. The facts remain.
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI already did that in my last post.
If they disagree as to the nature of God, then they can't consciously be doing the same thing. If they agree that they are worshipping the same being but cannot define it, they don't know what they're worshipping.
- We all worship the God of Abraham!
- What is the nature of the God of Abraham?
- He, uh, is-what-He-is.
- Meaning?
- ...
Please formulate one declarative sentence containing 'God' and expressing a fact.
Spin it how you wish.
"Doing the same thing" means nothing. "Defining it" means nothing. The entity they all worship is the same one. They can disagree until the cows come home how to react to it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the same dude. Individuals often do not know what they're worshipping, I can't argue with that.
Ohhhh, wait a minute, I think I sees the problem here.
You reject God as an actual entity. Therefore your only picture of God is as an idea, the truth of which you reject. To you, there is no entity to worship, or perhaps the entity IS the idea, and so you see the argument as abstract, at best. Am I close so far? If I have this wrong, please enlighten me.
I'm saying that there is an entity, called God by the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews. This God is the same entity in all three cases. They can choose how to worship Him in their own way, we all know they disagree on this. It doesn't change the fact that they worship the same entity. Man's limited and controversial definition of this entity doesn't enter into it. They can argue all day long about what it is, and why and how they worship it, but they all worship it.
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneCome on, Suzi, nobody has been disrespectful (yet!) in their disagreement with you. No need to be pre-emptively defensive.
Do you accept the ravings of your schizoid aunt as fact?
What if she's wealthy?
Personally, I can understand how a non-Trinitarian could say that they are the same God, but a Trinitarian believes in a God whose essence is very different. If anything, Muslims believe that the part/essence that Trinitarians call Father is God. Surely you see an important difference here?
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by PalynkaI see a difference between two concepts. For those who worship Him, God is not just a concept. I say again, He is what He is. Man can't "decide" what God is. Even in your example, the Trinitarian and the non-Trinitarian alike worship the same God. They may disagree about what He is, but it is the exact same entity.
Come on, Suzi, nobody has been disrespectful (yet!) in their disagreement with you. No need to be pre-emptively defensive.
Personally, I can understand how a non-Trinitarian could say that they are the same God, but a Trinitarian believes in a God whose essence is very different. If anything, Muslims believe that the part/essence that Trinitarians call Father is God. Surely you see an important difference here?
The Blind Men and the Elephant
John Godfrey Saxe
(1816–1887)
It was six men of Hindustan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind)
That each by observation
Might satisfy the mind.
The first approached the Elephant
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side
At once began to bawl:
"Bless me, it seems the Elephant
Is very like a wall".
The second, feeling of his tusk,
Cried, "Ho! What have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear".
The third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Then boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake."
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong.
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneVery good. Still, no closer to an answer are we?
I see a difference between two concepts. For those who worship Him, God is not just a concept. I say again, He is what He is. Man can't "decide" what God is. Even in your example, the Trinitarian and the non-Trinitarian alike worship the same God. They may disagree about what He is, but it is the exact same entity.
The Blind Men and the Elepha ...[text shortened]... each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneAnd so is the bottle of water on my desk... Man can't decide what God is, but Suzianne can determine they worship the same one.
I see a difference between two concepts. For those who worship Him, God is not just a concept. I say again, He is what He is. Man can't "decide" what God is. Even in your example, the Trinitarian and the non-Trinitarian alike worship the same God. They may disagree about what He is, but it is the exact same entity.
Anyway, I give up.
10 Sep 09
Originally posted by Hand of HecateWell, Hand, it is altogether good that you should seek answers. I sort of imagine this puts you in the same lifeboat as the rest of us.
Very good. Still, no closer to an answer are we?
In this particular case, however, I must admit that I missed the question.