In the Indonesian language, which is a lingua franca based on a much older language called Melayu [from which Malaysia gets its name], there is a whole load of interpersonal stuff to factor into how one decides to say "you".
There is "anda", "kamu", "kau", "pak, bapak", "bu, ibu", "lu", "mas", "mbak", "saudara", "engkau", "kak, kakak", "dik, adik", "eyang", "kalian", "anda sekalian", "bapak ibu sekalian", "[insert the person's name here]".
And then there is all manner of regional dialect versions ["mbak" and "mas" above are of Javanese origin, for example], and some people, when talking to people of the foreign persuasion, like me, even use the word "you". They just insert it awkwardly into sentences where they want to use an Indonesian word - an indication of some tiny predicament in their mind as to how to process your status relative to them.
There simply is no 'dilemma' like this in English. The necessary vocabulary is just not available!
In Indonesian, for a foreigner, it requires a whole load of acculturalization and internalization regarding hierarchy, relationship, formality etc. [assuming one wants to get it right] before the appropriate word is selected. Naturally, this happens to people here while they are still very young.
Having said that, one can simply use "anda" - especially if you are a foreigner - and a lot of the psychology is bypassed although it is pointedly neutral/distant, which might not be your intention.
If I have a 55-year-old workman in the house fixing something, I can establish a tone and a perceived relationship with him as a result of selecting "anda" [neutral], "mas" [informal, warm], or "pak" [respectful].
If I call a 55-year-old man "mas" he will call me "mas" back. But he might have preferred me to have used "pak" or "bapak". If I use "anda" he will assume it's just the best I can do as a non-native speaker of Indonesian.
A 40-year-old man/woman would not dare address me as "mas" without some signal from me in advance and if they did, I might be forgiven for concluding they have some truculent intent with their deliberate overfamiliarity.
And so it goes. It's interesting. I am aware of it but I don't worry about it.
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@divegeester saidPronouns only really matter when you talk about people in the third person, which is to say: behind their back or as if they are not also standing right there.
I am so never gonna get the hang of this crap.
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@fmf saidTa!
In the Indonesian language, which is a lingua franca based on a much older language called Melayu [from which Malaysia gets its name], there is a whole load of interpersonal stuff to factor into how one decides to say "you".
There is "anda", "kamu", "kau", "pak, bapak", "bu, ibu", "lu", "mas", "mbak", "saudara", "engkau", "kak, kakak", "dik, adik", "eyang", "kalian", "anda se ...[text shortened]... overfamiliarity.
And so it goes. It's interesting. I am aware of it but I don't worry about it.
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- 27445
@lipareeno saidProbably for the best. I have heard that you have ugly toes.
I don't toe the line.
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@lipareeno saidWill you bake the bunny some dill-weed loaves? Preferably little loaves on the bunny's own scale. I think the rabbit might like that.
I don't get what anyone is saying.
I planted some dill weed today.
Did you know wild rabbits prefer dill weed over fruits and vegetables?
I have a wild pet rabbit who comes by for bread. He loves the bread. Wait till he/she sees that dill weed sprouting.
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@divegeester saidGood to see you are keeping up with the rest of the class.
They/them
They[slash]Them
You not getting it means you’re either thick or a sexist racist.
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@fmf saidIn Buddhist terms, it sounds like you are saying that Indonesians are especially crazy.
In the Indonesian language, which is a lingua franca based on a much older language called Melayu [from which Malaysia gets its name], there is a whole load of interpersonal stuff to factor into how one decides to say "you".
There is "anda", "kamu", "kau", "pak, bapak", "bu, ibu", "lu", "mas", "mbak", "saudara", "engkau", "kak, kakak", "dik, adik", "eyang", "kalian", "anda se ...[text shortened]... overfamiliarity.
And so it goes. It's interesting. I am aware of it but I don't worry about it.
😉
In the interest of multicultural fluency, English needs a lot of simplification. Instead of a variety of pronouns which mean "this person", could we not have a single pronoun such as "ou"? (Proposed by a Scottish economist in 1792, which shows how reluctant humans are to do anything that might make life simpler.)
@torunn saidI work with dozens of different people every single day, mostly clients, and one of them signs their emails with the suffix “they/them”. We work together better than most average supplier/client relationships and it was obvious from the day we met that they were an attractive female who was non-binary.
What crap is it you are never gonna get the hang of?
Recently I was in their workplace talking to one of their colleagues and referred to them as “she”. I was immediately self conscious of this error and lost my concentration missing the reply from the colleague who looked at me as though I’d just had a mini-stroke. I just said “shall I say that again?”, the colleague laughed and we carried on.
The problem isn’t my client’s non-binary sexually nor their choice to exclaim it, it’s me not being able to naturally remember to not use “she”, or “he” when in the flow of conversation.
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@kevin-eleven saidPeterson definitively gives "stupid person's idea of a genius" vibes.
Jordan Peterson couldn't fight his way out of his own crap with a Roto-Rooter.
