Originally posted by pradtfSweet, a vegan willing to talk about it! 😉
well there may be some shame present - i'm not sure how anyone can really agree more than 100% much less 1000% - so save some of that excess for later 😉
people are willing to accept certain things provided they don't know details ...[text shortened]... i would have cared.
it is otherwise now.
in friendship,
prad[/b]
I have been meaning to ask you some questions regarding your diet habits and this thread certainly seems the place to do so. I'm basically an unabashed meat eater. I try to avoid beef, for health/weight reasons but realise that if I were REALLY serious about it there are many other things that make just as much sense to avoid. In fact, from an ethical and environmental point of view I'm being totally hypocritical and from a helath point of view I'm clearly decieving myself. Anyway...
Do you think humans were ever intended to eat our fellow animals? If not, why do you think we started and on such a large scale? Is it possible that eating animals was necessary once upon a time in our evolution but we should have evolved out of it by now? Is the increasing popularity of vegetarianism over the last few decades the beginning of the afore mentioned evolution?
I have only one "real life" friend who is vegan and she struggled with anorexia all through high school and still does to a lesser extent today. I have always assumed her veganism was just a excuse to avoid eating much. Clearly my only real experiences with it are not exactly healthy. I undertand that living a vegan lifestyle CAN BE very healthy, but if you do not know what you are doing can cause some fairly serious health risks. How do you educate yourself? Any good books you can suggest?
I have been interested in adopting a diet that depends much less on meat. I have toyed around with pescatarianism etc...However, it seems a little silly, from an enviroenmental standpoint, to avoid eating cows and chickens but gobble up fish (etc) al I want. I suppose the ethical point of view is equally silly. From purely a health perspective I suppose eating only seafood would be considered "better" than what I have been doing. Anyway, all that to say, would you suggest easing into veganism by starting with pesca or just educate myself and go for the full monty, so to speak?
I have more questions, but this is long enough. 🙂
TheSkipper
Originally posted by KneverKnightDoes insect meat contain vitamin B6 and B12?
Background: I just saw a clip on television promoting the consumption of insects instead of meat.
Ignoring the "ewww" factor; question: For those people who don't eat meat for cruelty-to-animals reasons, would raising insects commercially as a food source bother you? Would you consider adding this to your diet?
For those people who eschew meat on h ...[text shortened]... ising of cattle, for example, freeing more farmland for raising vegetables.
Thoughts? Comments?
Andrew, you bring up some interesting ideas here, so i've taken the liberty of answering them at some length. If you have more questions, please do ask - if I don't know the answers I can usually find them from various sources.
Originally posted by TheSkipper
Do you think humans were ever intended to eat our fellow animals? If not, why do you think we started and on such a large scale?
Well the large scale thing wasn't done till this century. before the arrival of mass agrifarming, meat consumption was relatively low - small farmers and small amounts of meat.
As far as the biology of eating meat, humans really aren't designed for it - though you'll hear otherwise believe it or not even from some vegans who like to overstress the don't-eat-meat-for-compassionate-reasons argument. Here's a bit of the biology behind it:
We do not have teeth for ripping and tearing as do real carnivores (eg cats) or omnivores (eg dogs), nor do we possess the short digestive tracts through which consumed flesh passes through quickly. Instead, humans have teeth that are suitable for grinding and a long digestive tract in which vegetable material can be processed (in fact, when meat winds up here it putrifies leading to a host of physical problems).
Our digestive system is not capable of properly breaking down large animal proteins which wind up in the blood stream resulting in protein antigeneity (the production of antibodies to attack the large proteins) leading to inflammatory conditions such as eczema, asthma and arthritis. Nor can it handle the high cholestrol fat that animal products contain leading to obesity and clogged arteries resulting in heart problems. When an autopsy is done of a heart attack victim one can pull out the cylinders of fat that constricted blood flow. Never, ever has it been found that the flow of blood was stopped by pieces of apples, brocoli or tofu!
Even our psychology isn't designed for an animal consumptive lifestyle: when you see a squirrel do you think 'how cute!' or do you start salivating?
Now the omnivore advocates will emphasize that we don't have quite the physiology of a cow and that some primates do eat meat (as a 'delicacy'😉 and therefore we are omnivorous. Well, all creatures are omnivorous to some extent (practically anything can go down the hatch) and of course we can eat meat - it doesn't mean that it is a good idea.
There is a wild evolutionary 'theory' (advocated by svw) about how our ancestors needed this extra protein to develop our greater brain size - However, you will see from the cited work by Leonard and Robertson 1994 and some of RHP's resident neurologist kyngi's comments that this is nonsense:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=9346&page=5
(there is interesting stuff in that whole thread btw)
Is it possible that eating animals was necessary once upon a time in our evolution but we should have evolved out of it by now? Is the increasing popularity of vegetarianism over the last few decades the beginning of the afore mentioned evolution?
Eating animals was never necessary (expect perhaps in places where plant food is not to be found), but these questions are really most interesting.
The popularity of vegetarianism is largely due to increased education and not the further evolution of our biology or our ethics (in my opinion, at least). People just didn't know the dangers of animal protein consumption, they didn't know about what was happening to the environment, they didn't know about the horrors of factory farming. Of course, when we learn about the latter two, most peoples' consciences are eventually stirred to some extent and I suppose that, in itself, is an evolution on a mini scale.
Clearly my only real experiences with it are not exactly healthy. I undertand that living a vegan lifestyle CAN BE very healthy, but if you do not know what you are doing can cause some fairly serious health risks.
you just haven't met too many vegetarians, yet 😀
try looking, for instance, at the veg athletes (some are strict veg) on this list:
Hank Aaron (home run champion in major league baseball)
Andreas Cahling (body builder)
Chris Campbell (1980 world champion wrestler)
Sally Eastall (Marathon runner - UK No 2)
Sally Hibberd (British Women's Mountain Bike Champion)
Billie Jean King (tennis champion)
Martina Navratilova (tennis champion)
Silken Laumann (Olympic rower)
Killer Kowalski (wrestler)
Jack LaLanne (Fitness guru)
Donnie LaLonde (Former Light Heavyweight Champion of the World.)
Katherine Monbiot (world champion arm wrestler and nutritionist)
Edwin Moses (longtime world hurdling champion)
Carl Lewis (world record for 100m)
Bill Pearl (Bodybuilder, Mr America)
Anthony Peeler (NBA Grizzlies basketball player)
Jacques Vaughn (All American point guard, #1-ranked Univ of KS Jayhawks)
John Salley (only 4x NBA champ in history)
Peter Leko (chess player)
Judith Polgar (chess player)
Vishi Anand (chess player)
I undertand that living a vegan lifestyle CAN BE very healthy, but if you do not know what you are doing can cause some fairly serious health risks.
This is not correct at all. An unhealthy diet is unhealthy regardless of whether it is veg or not. The reason some veg wannabes end up getting sick is because they try to live on pasta and tofu. You don't have to take any extra caution because you are eating veg.
The weird stuff about not getting enough protein came because of an ill-conceived line of reasoning from a misinterpretation of statements by the likes of Francis Lappe Moore back in the 70s or 80s. She said something like 'to get proteins like meat supplies, you need to combine vegetables properly'. Unfortunately, what stuck was the notion 'to get proper proteins, you need to combine vegetables proteins properly'.
As a result, some people still hold the strange notion that you can't get your proteins on a vegetarian diet or that vegetarian diets are somehow deficient in something or other.
Vegetarian diets are not only as 'complete' as you want them to be, they are fortunately missing many of the key ingredients that you really don't want messing up your inards.
The biggest scare tactic against veg diets is B12 deficiency. While this is a serious matter for sure, what people don't realize is that even meat eaters can get B12 deficient, which is why B12 is sold as a supplement. Veg people who eat variety and raw foods, don't really need to be concerned. Those who worry a lot can always drink fortified soya milk, consume miso, eat algae or even do the supplement thing.
A funny thing about the B12 is that no one seems to be quite sure what is correct and opinions keep changing in the medical community (even the vegan one). For instance, when we went vegan in 1990 our vegan doctor told us that just to be on the safe side he recommends getting B12 shots - we didn't. A year later, he changed his position (as did a couple of other doctors - these are MDs, btw not NDs) to take supplements because your supply of B12 will run out in seven years - we didn't. Then we were told that eating raw foods and not washing them too well would allow B12 from the soil to enter your system - well we ate primarily raw foods anyway. Then we heard that some people can produce B12 on their own. Recently we have heard that the 7 year limit has been extended to 20 years. So since we've already been this way for 1.5 decades (my 15 year old son is a lifelong vegan), we figured if we keep waiting, the B12 limit may stretch itself to infinity. 😀
I have toyed around with pescatarianism etc...However, it seems a little silly
i agree and i suggested you look into fish toxicity seriously. Some people cite the stat that pescasian eskimos have no heart problems because of the omegas in fish - but what they don't take into account is that they often die after 4 decades because of the restrictive diet that causes other things so the heart problems don't get a chance to appear. Eskimos also have the highest rate of osteroporosis (north americans are 2nd from what I recall) as a result of the excessive protein consumption which turns the body acidic leaching calcium from the bones.
would you suggest easing into veganism ... or just educate myself and go for the full monty, so to speak?
It is important to educate yourself. We got into this seriously in 1990 because we wanted the best nutrition for our son - so that gives you an idea of how serious we were. As we learned about the different 'fads' and 'promises' from both the veg and non-veg communities, certain patterns started emerging. Some of the promises, despite their correctness, seemed lopsided - they give you something, but you pay for it elsewhere. We settled on a primarily rawfood diet largely based on Herbert Shelton's ideas of natural hygiene. It is simple and sensible.
I don't like to ease into anything. If I know this is how it is, then usually I just go and do it. My wife took her time and 'eased' into it - she enjoyed cheese and didn't acknowledge for a year that the dairy proteins were worsening her arthritis (http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=11794&page=4).
I think if your education is sufficient, the intensity of your actions will flow easier. What is most important is to realize that no one else should 'convince' you - that is your job. Only then will you make the change for the right reasons and stick with it.
In friendship,
prad
Originally posted by pradtfthought i'd add a few other veg chess players to the list since i wasn't able to edit my earlier post:
Peter Leko (chess player)
Judith Polgar (chess player)
Vishi Anand (chess player)
Jon Speelman
William Addison
pradtf
Steve Schuessler
in friendship,
prad
I will lightly disagree with Prad's comment on the unnaturalness of eating meat. Humans are extraordinarily versatile, surviving successfully in virtually all terrestrial habitats and in all climates.
In areas where agriculture is not practical some humans have eaten a diet that is very heavily meat - oriented (the Inuit of Northern Canada, for example, and the Buddhists of Tibet). I think it is a stretch to call this "unnatural."
Also, some of our closest relatives eat meat. Chimpanzees are omnivorous, and are very willing to eat bugs. Goriillas are more vegetarian, but they eat bugs too. (It always comes back to eating bugs in this thread!)
I would argue that modern humans are unique in that we have both the capacity for moral reasoning and enough collective wealth that we can afford to act on our moral convictions. So vegetarianism is a very logical course for us.
But I would not agree that it is totally natural.
But I would not agree that it is totally natural.
Do you mean unnatural?
I have a hard time with the "natural" concept, or the "was designed for" argument. Everything that is, is natural, and I don't think anyone designed us, and we don't have a "purpose" except maybe to be as happy as we can.
I think the ability of human beings to eat meat is an important part of our survival capability, and it's very valuable to us as a species. Now as for the more specific health consequences of eating meat I am not well educated about.
Originally posted by pradtfThanks for all the info. I have some comments to make but need to get some sleep first. Before I do, however, I thought I would share with you a conversation I had with my fiancee that you might appreciate.
Andrew, you bring up some interesting ideas here, so i've taken the liberty of answering them at some length. If you have more questions, please do ask - if I don't know the answers I can usually find them from various sources.
In friendship,
prad
I was talking to her about making a change in our diet and suggested the possibility of pescatarianism. She briefly considered my statements and replied: "It sounds fishy, to me."
I seem to be surrounded by very punny people...
TheSkipper
Originally posted by AThousandYoungprad never made a comment about eating meat being 'unnatural' and only pointed out why it is unwise given the well documented health consequences (that result from the physiology).
I have a hard time with the "natural" concept, or the "was designed for" argument. Everything that is, is natural, and I don't think anyone designed us, and we don't have a "purpose" except maybe to be as happy as we can.
...[text shortened]... c health consequences of eating meat I am not well educated about.
saying that everything that is, is natural may be a bit tautological.
the 'designed for argument' really should not be all that disagreeable. for instance, humans are not designed to fly. when they try to flap their arms while springing from a cliff, they experience consequences. similarly, when they consume animal proteins they also experience consequences (admittedly not with the same drastic abruptness).
eating meat is completely unnecessary for the survival of the human species now or in the past (again except for situations where plant foods are hard to come by).
neither is vegetarianism a recent fad, as some people seem to think. it has been around for a extremely long, long time.
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by TheSkipperyour fiancee is a very wise person as she has already fathomed the ineffishiency of seafood. 😀
She briefly considered my statements and replied: "It sounds fishy, to me."
in fishyendship,
prad
ps you asked for books and i can give you several, but a good starting place would be the goVeg section on the VeggieChess website where you'll find some helpful links at the bottom of the page:
http://towardsfreedom.com/veggiechess/goVeg.html
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYes, the ability to eat meat is valuable, but that doesn't entail that we ought to eat meat. My ability to cause physical harm to others is also valuable, but that doesn't entail that I ought to go looking for fights. I've been a vegetarian for 13 yrs., and I'm gradually cutting dairy out of my diet (no eggs or milk, as of now), but I'd eat meat if necessary for my survival. The point here is that eating meat isn't necessary for our survival, especially for those of us living in developed nations. Nobody is talking about getting rid of our ability to eat meat. What we're talking about is not eating meat.
I think the ability of human beings to eat meat is an important part of our survival capability, and it's very valuable to us as a species. Now as for the more specific health consequences of eating meat I am not well educated about.[/b]
Also, I noticed in your profile that you identify yourself as a hedonistic utilitarian. It is an entailment of that view that all pleasure and pain, including that of animals, ought to be factored into utility calculations. Unless you are prepared to distinguish between higher and lower pleasures, a la Mill, I don't see how you can sanction killing animals for food.
Originally posted by pradtfVitamins are organic substances needed by the body in small--but critical--amounts in order to function properly. Vitamins combine with proteins in the body to form enzymes, which regulate body processes. With the exception of vitamins D and K, which the body can manufacture, vitamins must be obtained through the foods we eat.
Andrew, you bring up some interesting ideas here, so i've taken the liberty of answering them at some length. If you have more questions, please do ask - if I don't know the answers I can usually find them from various sources.
[i]Origi ...[text shortened]... e for the right reasons and stick with it.
In friendship,
prad
Humans need 13 vitamins to function properly. These are vitamin A, the B family of vitamins (which has 8 members: thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, B6, B12, folacin and biotin), vitamin C, vitamin, D, vitamin E, and vitamin K.
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In nature, iron is available in two forms, the haem and the non-heam form.
Humans can easily absorb the haem form and this iron can be used in the making of red blood cells. The other form, the non-haem form can be absorbed, but the absorption is very much lower.
Important products which contain iron in the haem-form are meat products.
Liver is for instance an important source, but also beef, fish, eggs. Most animal products contain iron in this haem form. Vegetable foods contain iron mostly in the non-haem form. Important sources are pulses, soy beans, nuts, millets, cereals, dried fruit, green leafy vegetables.
To improve the absorption of this non-haem iron it is important that next to the cereals also sufficient vitamin C is in the diet. Sources of vitamin C are citric fruit, other fruits, potatoes, vegetables. When non-haem iron and vitamin C are consumed together, the non-haem iron is changed into a haem-iron and thus more easy to absorb.
There are many different B vitamins which have many different functions in our body. B6 and B12 are both related to the making of red blood cells.
B12 occurs only in animal products such as egg, cheese, yogurt, curd,
milk, fish, meat. B6 occurs also in meat and fish, and further in potatoes, bananas, wheat, and nuts.
From:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov98/910370904.Me.r.html
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On the other hand, humans aren't made to consume rice, pasta, potatoes or bread. They can't be, because these products aren't found naturally.
I don't believe humans are built to consume the majority of vegetables either. I can't imagine my ancestors sniffing around the ground in the hope of digging up a turnip.
If we look at our closest relatives in nature, the chimpansees (both families), we can see their diet consists of fruit, nuts and meat. Our teeth have evolved to become slightly less sharp. Maybe this is because we don't have to use them as weapons anymore?
I'm pretty certain the digestive track of the chimpansee is similar to ours as well. So, I would therefor presume that fruit, nuts and meat contain all the vitamins and minerals we need to survive. And they do.
I totally agree that we eat too much meat nowadays (in most western countries anyway), but I think that we are supposed to eat meat and eggs (vitamin B12).
Any diet which needs supplementing can't be healthy.
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Edit: I've tried to remove the bold letter, but for some reason I can't. My humble appologies for this.
Edit 2: Now I see the letters have changed to italics. Let's hope they change normal after this edit.
Edit 3: I give up.
Originally posted by shavixmirshav,
On the other hand, humans aren't made to consume rice, pasta, potatoes or bread. They can't be, because these products aren't found naturally.
I don't believe humans are built to consume the majority of vegetables either ...
Edit 3: I give up.
i'm really not sure what you want me to do with all this other than to point out that all you need to do is enclose what you want bolded inside "["b"]" and "["/b"]" (no quotes of course) and make sure that these delimiters are always paired up. in all likelihood, the reason your stuff came out in italics is because you got an "["i"]" from my post that you quoted and because of the [text shortened] wiped out the "["/i"]". even though the problem originates from my post, it is still all your fault.
the logic about humans not being made to consume rice, pasta and turnips etc goes about it in a rather backwards fashion in that the 'appropriateness' of the meal is being determined by its easy accessibility rather than by the physiology. so this would be like saying that even though human teeth can grind nuts quite well, humans aren't "built to consume" walnuts because their teeth can't get through the shell.
fruitarians though would agree to some extent with the idea that humans should be eating fruits rather than hi carbs like rice and pasta - that's why they eat fruits primarily (and some leafy veggies).
interestingly enough, a few people do possess a rather rare condition known as carbohydrate intolerance which comes in primary form (an enzyme deficiency like lactose intolerance which actually affects 70% of adults) and secondary form (intestinal infections and/or celiac disease) that make it very difficult for them to eat carbs.
on the otherhand, the 'success' of specific hi carb diets such as the McDougall Plan is well known for nearly 2 decades.
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by bbarrI second that - I can't think of a Utilitarian argument that supports meat eating in modern societies, unless you count tastiness as a great creator of human welfare...
Yes, the ability to eat meat is valuable, but that doesn't entail that we ought to eat meat. My ability to cause physical harm to others is also valuable, but that doesn't entail that I ought to go looking for fights. I've been a vegetar ...[text shortened]... Mill, I don't see how you can sanction killing animals for food.
What if our ancestors were wolves, not chimps? I think the moral calculus would be unchanged, but the discomfort of acting morally would be considerable in that scenario.