20 Dec 03
Originally posted by fjordthis is fascinating stuff, fjord! thanks for the info.
Xmas is the successor of another feast: the birth of Mithras. Mithras was a originally a Persian God, he was representing the invincible Sun. It was said that he was born in cave when the sun started rising again.
it is really interesting how deep and different the original roots are from what we are brought up to think.
in friendship,
prad
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by pradtfChristmas is the stolen festival - timing as a mid-winter festival, holly, presents, the tree, snow, roaring fire - all go far back into old european relgions. Not sure about Santa Claus - he was invented by Coca-Cola.
[b]does anyone know whether it has been determined that christ was really not born dec25?
i]
The common people continued to celebrate a mid-winter festival even after Christianity was introduced - a celebration of good cheer, based on the continuance of life through a harsh winter. It could not be suppressed so it was subverted and became a Christian festival. The birth was simply tacked over the top.
So when you hear someone going on about how Jesus has been forgotten at Christmas - ignore them and enjoy yourself, as we have done for hundreds of years. Jesus never belonged there in the first place.
22 Dec 03
Originally posted by steerpikeAlways a "logical" explanation from the Godless left. If CHRISTmas has nothing to do with CHRIST, then why is it called CHRISTmas.....CHRIST IS the reason for Christmas or else it would be called something else....it doesn't matter how it came about or the origins of the celebration. For the past several hunderd years Christians have been observing the day as a remembrance of the birth of Jesus Christ...( yeah, I know Jesus probably wasn't actually born on the 25th) if you want to observe it for whatever your reasons, so be it, but don't diminish it for Christians by erroneously stating that Jesus never belonged there...what an asinine statement!! 🙄
Christmas is the stolen festival - timing as a mid-winter festival, holly, presents, the tree, snow, roaring fire - all go far back into old european relgions. Not sure about Santa Claus - he was invented by Coca-Cola.
The common people continued to celebrate a mid-winter festival even after Christianity was introduced - a celebration of good cheer, ...[text shortened]... urself, as we have done for hundreds of years. Jesus never belonged there in the first place.
22 Dec 03
1 edit
Originally posted by steerpikeChristmas was never stolen. This is one of those myths, going round in the Parrot Circuits, that people tell to "incriminate" Christians. Christmas was and still is a midwinterfestival. In the secular meaning of the festival people are contemplating the fact that after the dark and cold period there comes spring with sunshine, warmth and new life. It is a festival of life and of hope. The Christian spiritual meaning was added, because it has a parallel meaning. Christ, Life itself, appeared as a Light in the spiritual darkness of mankind, meaning sin and death. This is also a sign of hope. The exact birthday used to be not that important in the old days. The meaning had to match. In our modern Western world without "meaning" the exact birthday, merely a date, a number, becomes important. Because of these parallel meanings the two festivals were combined. We can still see the parallel meanings in the secular symbol of the Christmas tree, with the candles and later little electrical lamps to symbolise the sun in spring and summer and as a result of that the (of course in wintertime necessary artificial) fruit in it. This secular symbol was imported into the Anglo-American world during and after World War 1, as a result of the spontaneous Christmas Armistice by both German and British soldiers against the orders of their commanders in the trenches of Verdun, where the German soldiers disobeyed their commanders and walked through no man's land to the enemy lines, singing Christmas songs and carrying little Cristmas trees with candles in it, a Central European and German tradition. They shook hands with the British soldiers, singing Christmas songs and had their own Christmas Armistice. The other spiritual and more profound Christian meaning of Christmas as the Light that appears in our spiritual darkness is represented by the scene of the birth of Christ in a stable.
Christmas is the stolen festival - timing as a mid-winter festival, holly, presents, the tree, snow, roaring fire - all go far back into old european relgions. Not sure about Santa Claus - he was invented by Coca-Cola.
The common p ...[text shortened]... ndreds of years. Jesus never belonged there in the first place.
So nothing has been stolen. Don't worry ....
22 Dec 03
[i] This secular symbol was imported into the Anglo-American world during and after World War 1, as a result of the spontaneous Christmas Armistice by both German and British soldiers against the orders of their commanders in the trenches of Verdun, where the German soldiers disobeyed their commanders and walked through no man's land to the enemy lines, singing Christmas songs and carrying little Cristmas trees with candles in it, aLovely little story - I am afraid, like much of what you believe, it is just a lovely little story. It was Queen Victoria's German husband who introduced the Xmas tree to Britain - the young queen and Prince Albert were the Posh and Becks of their day.
[/b]
What I am saying is that my ancestors have celebrated at this time of year way before Mary persuaded Joseph she had a virgin pregnancy. The symbols of this mid winter festival have not changed. As you say, another layer of symbolism has been placed on top. I have called this theft of intellectual property and I admire the Christians for it. The policy has always been to incorporate local customs as St. Boniface did, and it makes a successful religion. I also don't mind if you call it a Christian festival and celebrate it in your own way - just don't expect anyone else to take this December 25th business and Christ being the true meaning of Christmas seriously.
The only confusing thing - it is summer and I will celebrate my mid-winter festival at the beach.
22 Dec 03
I wouldn't exactly say that Christmas was stolen. "Christmas" as someone said earlier was already a pagan (non-christian) festival. It was not Christmas nor was it a fixed date until the Nicene council (325 CE). The major reason that Constantine chose the day was simply because many pagans were becoming christians and they were already familiar with a midwinter festival. So he decided to make the transition easy for converts. Now was Christmas stolen or misappropriated? I say misappropriated. The origins have NOT changed although christians have placed spiritual meaning onto the festival. Now the real question is...does celebrating that day mean one is honoring the original idea of the festival or the christian misappropriation?
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
22 Dec 03
Originally posted by pradtfHo Ho Ho 😀
well actually there is, i seem to recall.
the santa clause is a statement in a very technical legal document that deals with the ramifications of anyone who wilfully or accidentally manages to use their own physical person to obstruct any outlet for fume evacuations that are necessary for the functioning of indoor fires at this particular time of year. thi ...[text shortened]... d as a result of the backflow of fumes resulting from such an occurence.
in friendship,
prad
22 Dec 03
Originally posted by ivanhoeOnce again, good post. Here are some other parallels I thought you might enjoy.
Christ, Life itself, appeared as a Light in the spiritual darkness of mankind, meaning sin and death. This is also a sign of hope. In our modern Western world without "meaning" the exact birthday, merely a date, a number, becomes important. Because of these parallel meanings the two festivals were combined. We can still see the parallel meanings in the sec ...[text shortened]... cene of the birth of Christ in a stable.
So nothing has been stolen. Don't worry ....
[/b]
Tree: is a evergreen tree, symbolizing everlasting life through Christ.
Jesus hanged on cross, (also called tree). Acts 5:29-32
Ornaments: Symbolic of Christians that deny themselves and take up the Cross and follow Jesus. Math 16:24 / Mark 8:34 / Mark 10:21 / Luke 9:23
Star on top: Symbolizing the visit from the Wise Men Math 2:2 / Math 2:9 / Math 2:10
Lights on tree: (Interesting reading) Math 5:14 / 5:16 John 1:9 / 3:19 / 8:12 / 9:5 / 11:9 / 12:46
Gifts: Gave gifts to Christ-child Math 2:11 Symbolic of charity and more blessed to give than to receive.
Also the best gift ever given, John 3:16
This is not meant to offend anyone. Each to his own. I just thought it would be cool to show some more parallels. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good-bye.
22 Dec 03
Originally posted by pradtfWhat a nice range of answers to the original post!!! Just proves what a load of {word blanked out} religion is! who knows when he/it was born, my guess is that it never even existed! Am i gonna be struck by lightning now for saying that? 😉.
does anyone know whether it has been determined that christ was really not born dec25?
i know jehovahs say it was sometime in oct or nov, and i have heard similar things from time to time.
anyone know?
((((i should add, with heavy parentheses, here that i am not trying to change the date we do all this stuff, because i don't anyway since i don't like b ...[text shortened]... ying anyone presents and haven't for years - hurray for scrooge!!))))
in friendship,
prad
22 Dec 03
1 edit
Originally posted by steerpike"It was Queen Victoria's German husband who introduced the Xmas tree to Britain - the young queen and Prince Albert were the Posh and Becks of their day."
Lovely little story - I am afraid, like much of what you believe, it is just a lovely little story. It was Queen Victoria's German husband who introduced the Xmas tree to Britain - the young queen and Prince Albert were the Posh and Be ...[text shortened]... mer and I will celebrate my mid-winter festival at the beach.
That is absolutely correct. They introduced the Christmas tree to the upper classes. The Christmas Armistice event, which you refer to as "a lovely little story", made the Christmas tree popular with the masses and of course for good (anti-war) reasons. The official history writing wants to forget this "lovely little story" because it was and still is undermining the "moral" of people, if you know what I mean ... Only a little wooden plaque reminds us of this unofficial Christmas Armistice organised spontaniously by the German and British soldiers in the fields around Verdun where once the trenches were dug out. There are always flowers lying at the foot of this little unofficial memorial plaque. They were not laid there by Her majesty the Queen, nor by the German Bundeskanzler .....
I even wonder whether German and British children are told about this in school. In British schools the official story (also true) is told about Victoria and Alburt. This official story does not do any harm to the "moral" of the people.
22 Dec 03
Originally posted by sunsetbeachSunsetbeach: "Just proves what a load of {word blanked out} religion is! who knows when he/it was born, my guess is that it never even existed!" Sunsetbeach.
What a nice range of answers to the original post!!! Just proves what a load of {word blanked out} religion is! who knows when he/it was born, my guess is that it never even existed! Am i gonna be struck by lightning now for saying that? 😉.
If you want to know about the existance of Christ I would suggest to you to visit this site :
http://reluctant-messenger.com/josephus.htm
Josephus was a priest, a soldier, and a scholar. He is famous for being the most credible secular historian to record the existence of Jesus Christ outside of the New Testament.
22 Dec 03
Originally posted by sunsetbeachit is interesting isn't it! i had no idea that the roots went so deep into other cultures. fjord's information is particularly intriguing since it connects to the eastern world.
What a nice range of answers to the original post!!! Just proves what a load of {word blanked out} religion is! who knows when he/it was born, my guess is that it never even existed! Am i gonna be struck by lightning now for saying that? 😉.
the diversity in responses doesn't speak against religion though. it only demonstrates that historical 'fact' largely depends on who writes the history books and which parts you want people to know about.
fortunately lightning is not controlled by those who would disagree with your assessment of 'religion' and i'm glad you aren't going to be struck down, because you would not be able to maintain or update your excellent website otherwise 😀
in friendship,
prad