One of the most important points of the original posting has been somewhat overlooked. That is 'Why should Christianity be the one true religion as opposed to one of the other great religions of the world?'.
Is it only Christians who go to Heaven? If so what happens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕
Originally posted by collemanheaven? where is that? just off the m25? 😉
One of the most important points of the original posting has been somewhat overlooked. That is 'Why should Christianity be the one true religion as opposed to one of the other great religions of the world?'.
Is it only Christians who go to Heaven? If so what happens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕
To Ivanhoe and Prad,
Reading the last two posts, i started to think that religion as an institution does not exist any longer.
If religion is a love-relation with God, or if religion is 'some wondreous ideas' you might as well call it 'my private fantasy'.
But then again i had a hunch that most 'believers' will always be a little unhappy if their private fantasies are not shared by all.
And then again Ivanhoe is referring to an institution with a very long tradition - the Roman Catholic Church. Prad as well seems to defend
something far bigger than his private fantasies, putting religion at the
same level as science and making a big effort to keep it Pure,
whenever it s not Pure it's very conveniently not the real thing but pseudo 🙂
So i am kind of intrigued by this mix of an universal moral claim and 'private fantasy'. Come on gentlemen, be clear.
Do you make an universal claim ? Or are you only saying 'free fantasy for all' ? Or do i miss the point completely ?
Originally posted by NohupOriginally posted by Nohup
To Ivanhoe and Prad,
...
Reading the last two posts, i started to think that religion as an institution does not exist any longer.
If religion is a love-relation with God, or if religion is 'some wondreous ideas' you might as well call it 'my private fantasy'.
it doesn't need to be a fantasy in the derogatory sense i think you are suggesting it to be. many people do have 'deep religious experiences' - it doesn't mean they are fantasizing. if they were, you may as well discount all meditatiion, all yogis, all saints etc who have had personal 'connections' that are not in the realm of organized religion.
But then again i had a hunch that most 'believers' will always be a little unhappy if their private fantasies are not shared by all.
fortunately, it is only a hunch and there is no reason to lump all believers together into a conspiracy theory of mass conversion.
Prad as well seems to defend
something far bigger than his private fantasies, putting religion at the
same level as science and making a big effort to keep it Pure,
whenever it s not Pure it's very conveniently not the real thing but pseudo 🙂
i am not aware of ever revealing my private fantasies on the forums, so i am puzzled as to how you have so much 'incite' into them 😀
the conclusion that i am putting religion and science 'at the same level' presupposes that knowledge bodies are merely things you can write on a blackboard at different heights. just because i compare aspects of religion and science doesn't mean i am putting them at the same level (whatever that means anyway). in fact, i have strongly implied that they function in different realms. as for purity, if you wish to insist that scientific ideas such as 'the earth is flat' and that 'air is kept pure by the zigzag motion of flies' as belonging to pure science, you are certainly free to do so. 😀
Or do i miss the point completely ?
i don't think you miss much. as i told you, i find your posts enjoyable, interesting and intriguing. however, i think it unnecessary to seek out conflict when there are so many opportunities for resolution as evidenced by the spiritual connections many scientists had and by the scientific interests many people from various religions display.
and just to be clear that i am not 'privately fantasizing', my background is engineering science and i subscribe to no religion. i do however, enjoy zen which is more a way to look at thiings and is amused by both rambunctious religion as well as stupendous science. i find it to be very pure 😀
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by collemanAnyone have anything to say on this?
One of the most important points of the original posting has been somewhat overlooked. That is 'Why should Christianity be the one true religion as opposed to one of the other great religions of the world?'.
Is it only Christians who go to Heaven? If so what happens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕
And thanks all for your replies, and for not letting this thread degenerate into a religion vs athiesm argument (which I was afraid it would)
Originally posted by NohupNohup,
To Ivanhoe and Prad,
Reading the last two posts, i started to think that religion as an institution does not exist any longer.
If religion is a love-relation with God, or if religion is 'some wondreous ideas' you might as well call it 'my private fantasy'.
But then again i had a hunch that most 'believers' will always be a little unhappy if their priv ...[text shortened]... ? Or are you only saying 'free fantasy for all' ? Or do i miss the point completely ?
You write: "you might as well call it 'my private fantasy'."
If you want to call the Judeo-Christian tradition a "private fantasy" I cannot understand what you exactly mean ..... You probably mean by stating this, that religion is just a load of non-sense ......
That statement is doing it's rounds for ages in the Parrot Circuits of society .... If you want to know what Christian religion is all about you have to take it seriously and you have to study it in order to find answers to your questions. You will find that you will encounter more and more questions doing so ......
.
Originally posted by sunsetbeachHi!
were you around when this ‘god’ created everything? 😉... And if this ‘god’ is sooooo great, why do bad things happen?
It's a great gift called freedom of choice. The supreme has given this to us to see what we would do. It really is a blessing.
Your actions has a cause and effect.
Better actions produce better results. Poor choices produce poorer results.
You really do create your own future.
Some mystics call this kharma and dharma.
Big G.
Originally posted by colleman
One of the most important points of the original posting has been somewhat overlooked. That is 'Why should Christianity be the one true religion as opposed to one of the other great religions of the world?'.
Is it only Christians who go to Heaven? If so what happens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕
This is a very difficult question. I do not have an instant answer for you regarding this matter. I think we have to find an answer in the direction of the claim that Jezus made of being Gods son, of being God Himself. He forgave sins, a capacity only God possesses in the Jewish tradition. Other serious religious persons such as Jewish prophets, Muslim prophet Mohammed, Budha (although Budhism is not a religion), Ghandi or famous Hindu teachers have never claimed that they were God themselves, but Jezus did.
Jesus claimed to be God. He claimed to be the Way, the Truth and Life itself.
You cannot reach the Truth by telling lies. You cannot go the right Way if you go the wrong way. You cannot obtain Life if you kill. You cannot reach God but through God. Jezus is Gods son. Jezus is God and, in the Holy Trinity, one with the other persons, the Father and the Holy Spirit .
The others are good teachers but they are not God ....
God Himself is our Saviour ..... nobody else is !
Originally posted by collemanIs it only Christians who go to Heaven? If so what happens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕[/b]
One of the most important points of the original posting has been somewhat overlooked. That is 'Why should Christianity be the one true religion as opposed to one of the other great religions of the world?'.
Is it only Christians who go ...[text shortened]... ppens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕
Again a very difficult question.
God decides who can spend his eternal life in His presence. Only if somebody would choose totally and absolutely and for 100% and forever against God, that person goes to hell. That person has chosen not to accept God and therefore will spend his eternal non-being in the absence of everything God is. He will spend his eternal life in the absence of Love, in the absence of Truth, in the absence of Justice, in the absence of Peace and even in the absence of Life. Roman Catholic people are not allowed to assume that somebody is in hell. This decision is God's decision and He gives us no insight in this. There are theologians who claim that there is nobody in hell because that is in contradiction with Gods eternal and unlimited Love. However, that's a theory of mortals. The Bible and Jezus Himself warns us more than once for the reality of hell .... It is not a "symbol" or anything. It is an existing reality .......
Originally posted by collemanNobody can really answer the question of what happens after death. To hypothesize an answer is just a waste of time & energy. One should just be content with the knowledge that we will eventually know the true answer.
One of the most important points of the original posting has been somewhat overlooked. That is 'Why should Christianity be the one true religion as opposed to one of the other great religions of the world?'.
Is it only Christians who go to Heaven? If so what happens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕
The reason why Christians say's these things is because they believe them to be right. In chess terms it would be like a lots of people saying that 1) e4 is the winning move for white. As the old saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat, therefore if heaven exists christianity will not have the only door into it.🙂
[From the first post - I was was reading something from Michael Crichton last night which seems timely:
The question I have is why? Why in the first place believe in any religion at all?
http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote05.html
An extract
"Today, one of the most powerful religions in the Western World is environmentalism. Environmentalism seems to be the religion of choice for urban atheists. Why do I say it's a religion? Well, just look at the beliefs. If you look carefully, you see that environmentalism is in fact a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths.
There's an initial Eden, a paradise, a state of grace and unity with nature, there's a fall from grace into a state of pollution as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge, and as a result of our actions there is a judgment day coming for us all. We are all energy sinners, doomed to die, unless we seek salvation, which is now called sustainability. Sustainability is salvation in the church of the environment. Just as organic food is its communion, that pesticide-free wafer that the right people with the right beliefs, imbibe."
His thoughts are - people need a religion and if they no longer believe in the traditional, will create a new one. Are there other pseudo-religions out there? And do all of us need a religion?
Jesus claimed to be God. He claimed to be the Way, the Truth and Life itself.
But why do you believe him? If I stood up and claimed to be the son of god, I'd be scorned by all Christians as a blasphemer, and by everyone else as a nutcase. Why was Jesus different?
Steerpike, good points on the pseudo-religions, but I don't think everyone needs a religion as such. A lot of things can be intepreted as religion. To quote latex bishop from earlier in this post;
When sciences provides all the answers, as one day logically it will, what will religion do then? Probably a another big war of belivers against non-believers.
This sounds to me like making science a almost religion.
Personally, I like to keep an open mind about such things. I refuse to believe anything completely without some kind of proof. This includes most science. I won't say I don't believe scientists when they say they've discovered how the Earth was formed or whatever, but I do remain open to the possibility that they may be wrong.
"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means."
- Clarence Darrow, Scopes trial
I love discussion about religion, I really do. I am a non-believer myself, but am always interested in why people believe in the things they do. I am very openminded and don't look down on anyone who believes differently than I. That said, I'll get to the original questions:
1)Why believe in religion in the first place?
It is my belief that religion came from a need to know the purpose of life, a reason to live it, and the need for an explanation of nature when science was young yet.
Purpose and Reason) It is a very hard concept to accept that there may be no reason for humans to be here other than mothernature put us here. People need something to believe in, a reason to get up each day and go through the trials that we do. Life is hard, and then to know that there will be no conciousness after death, no rewards for the way we lived our life? I couldn't imagine humankind surviving as a race with no religion. Our thinking, concious brains necessitates some kind of religion in most people. There are those that don't believe in a higher power, me among them, but it wouldn't work as a whole. Religion is also a good excuse for a lot of things as an earlier post stated, can't remember who wrote it- for war and such.
Nature) If you had never seen fire before, had no idea what it was or where it came from how would you react? It's a miracle, it's from something bigger than us- there must be a higher power that created this amazing thing! The earth is shaking, tearing down our town of Jericho, a higher power has to be responsible for this! Thus an answer to the unexplainable. It is a person's first reaction- I have an example: I was working one night, checking a lady into the hotel, when all of a sudden there was a HUGE bright flash outside and electricity died all around us. Turns out a truck hit a telephone pole and knocked out the electricity. The lady I was checking in said her first reaction to it had been that it came from "up above".
2)Why the specific religion you choose?
This is one of those questions that has irked me for as long as I can remember. My personal best answer is location and tradition. If you are raised christian, many stay christian, like genius. If you were born in the muslim world chances are you are going to believe in the Koran. Of course people are going to choose their own beliefs, but I think most of those beliefs are influenced heavily by where you live, the people you live with, and what is socially acceptable. A bit of brainwashing as one post noted I think. I believe it is "right" to drive on the right side of the road, but then I live in America, that type of thing. Driving on the left side of the road would feel "wrong" to me.
Years ago I was a very strong christian. I didn't belong to any denomination but frequented a lot of different churches. I went to a church of christ college out of high school. This is about the time I started doubting my faith, and it was speeded along by the beliefs of those around me. See, I was not a member of the Church of Christ. In a friendly biblestudy one night, my best friend at the time point blank told me I was going to hell. I was going to hell because I was not a member of the Church of Christ, did not participate in communion (I had never partaken in the practice and refused to then because I didn't want to do it "because that's what everyone else was doing" ) and their church is the only true church. I believed in God, believed Jesus died for our sins, prayed for forgiveness and tried to live as good a life as I possibly could through God, but I was still going to hell because I wasn't baptized in the Church of Christ. I am not shooting down people of that denomination, that is just an example of my experience with the question at hand. It's one thing I could never understand and I still question.
Okay, sorry the post is so looooong, but I really like talking about religion, but I'll shut up now...till my next post. 🙄
NC
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Originally posted by collemanChristianity is the main religion mainly due to the actions of the European nations over the last 500 years. You had the religious missons of the Jesuits to start with, then as Spain, France, Holland and Britain developed their dominion of the rest of the world with their empires.
One of the most important points of the original posting has been somewhat overlooked. That is 'Why should Christianity be the one true religion as opposed to one of the other great religions of the world?'.
Is it only Christians who go ...[text shortened]... ppens to majority of people in the world who are not Christians?😕
A lot of the "smaller" religions and belief structures were swallowed up by the "god of the mighty white man". He obviously had a better god, it was a god that had a big army, navy, wealth, guns and swords. Not only that, from a control point of view, it makes sense to convert people within your empire to the same language / religion as this makes thing a lot easer to control. This is nothing new, Alexander converted his whole empire on the Greek system he knew for example.
As to why christianity is seen as the "one" religion, well thats simple - you live in a christian society so thats what you would believe. I am sure if you live in a musllim nation you would not see it the same way. Modern history and the development of the media has all be developed, decided, and accepted as fact within "christian" countries. This taints our perceptions totally. If Britain, France and Spain had been Islamic nations, then we would be asking why Islam was seen as the "one" religion.
Andrew