16 Nov 06
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveBut where do you stop? Say you played a cheater and your rating is recalculated. Say I had played you as well, I could then expect our game to be recalculated because your rating is now different to what it should have been in my game. So if your rating is recalculated, everybody who's played you in that time period could also say their rating should be recalculated, which would mean a lot of work.
The ratings would then be slightly more accurate so no it is not really a stupid idea at all.
It's not feasible. The current system while unfair is probably the fairest we can expect.
16 Nov 06
Originally posted by SidiJust a matter of number crunching - which is what computers are best at - it's not as if someone has to sit down with a pencil and notebook to work out each calculation.
But where do you stop? Say you played a cheater and your rating is recalculated. Say I had played you as well, I could then expect our game to be recalculated because your rating is now different to what it should have been in my game. So if your rating is recalculated, everybody who's played you in that time period could also say their rating should be reca ...[text shortened]...
It's not feasible. The current system while unfair is probably the fairest we can expect.
16 Nov 06
It may just be number crunching, but this server runs on php. So you'd have to write a php script to recalculate all the games, this would be have to run constantly due to new people being found to be banned. Running such a script on a large database would take up the processing power needed to deliver the site to us the users, so would effect it's speed. From my experience with Apache servers, this would take up a lot of the cpu utilisation.
Also you'd have the problem of needing to tell people why their rating just changed.
As you said in your first post, probably almost all of us have been affected, so it evens itself out. So we've all lost a few rating points. I really couldn't care.
16 Nov 06
I have to agree with the others on this one doc. We all are affected by cheaters on this site and others. I think RHP does the best job it can at catching and banning engine users. To go back and re due all the ratings of anyone that ever played a engine user is just about impossible, and anyway you look at it, it would take a great amount of time and money to do so. Sometimes we just have to accept our losses and move on. Our Clan has lost clan matches due to engine users. Sometimes thats just the way the cookie crumbles.
17 Nov 06
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveNo they wouldn't. You see the ELO system is self-adjusting. If I lose 100 points playing against a cheater (say 3 games at 32 points each) then I will quite quickly return back to my actual rating because I will gain more points per win due to my lower rating.
The ratings would then be slightly more accurate so no it is not really a stupid idea at all.
Recalculating ratings wouldn't make them more accurate.
18 Nov 06
Originally posted by XanthosNZSo, to clarify; you are saying that the rating calculations are just as accurate when false results are included?
No they wouldn't. You see the ELO system is self-adjusting. If I lose 100 points playing against a cheater (say 3 games at 32 points each) then I will quite quickly return back to my actual rating because I will gain more points per win due to my lower rating.
Recalculating ratings wouldn't make them more accurate.
18 Nov 06
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveHow are they false results?
So, to clarify; you are saying that the rating calculations are just as accurate when false results are included?
Most computer users are 2000+. We'd more than likely lose against 2000+ players, engine or not, so the result can't really be declared "false".
D
19 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by RagnorakAfter they've been using their programs for a while maybe.
Most computer users are 2000+.
D
Or do you mean most program users are 2000+ without their engines? [which I would find hard to believe]
Maybe, after more games one's rating would revert to 'almost exactly' what it should have been but there would still be an element of falseness to it.
19 Nov 06
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveHe's saying that you played an engine, and lost. You shouldn't get a win against a 2000 rated player regardless that they cheated to beat you.
After they've been using their programs for a while maybe.
Or do you mean most program users are 2000+ without their engines? [which I would find hard to believe]
Maybe, after more games one's rating would revert to 'almost exactly' what it should have been but there would still be an element of falseness to it.
Your rating is already right regardless who you play. There is no need to change your rating, because you don't know the true rating of the cheater.
You finished games with a cheat, and that sucks... but the score is the score is the score.
The plus side is, when cheats are removed we all move up in ranks. Rating shouldn't be changed at all. We played a cheater, and did best we could.
P-
19 Nov 06
Originally posted by PhlabibitI can see the reasoning that rating points shouldn't be awarded for unfinished engine games but it still seems unfair that if you have lost points to them it's ok because;
He's saying that you played an engine, and lost. You shouldn't get a win against a 2000 rated player regardless that they cheated to beat you.
Your rating is already right regardless who you play. There is no need to change your rating, because you don't know the true rating of the cheater.
You finished games with a cheat, and that sucks... but ...[text shortened]... nks. Rating shouldn't be changed at all. We played a cheater, and did best we could.
P-
a] your rating will soon go back to what it was.
or
b]it's too much trouble to sort it out.
Like I said before, I don't worry about ratings myself, other than when I am cheated. If I was seriously concerned I would start using books and databases - I only play for fun really.
19 Nov 06
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveIf you don't care why did you start this thread? And why are you continuing to argue when it is clear that there is no reason to recalculate every single rating because of a cheating player.
I can see the reasoning that rating points shouldn't be awarded for unfinished engine games but it still seems unfair that if you have lost points to them it's ok because;
a] your rating will soon go back to what it was.
or
b]it's too much trouble to sort it out.
Like I said before, I don't worry about ratings myself, other than when I am c ...[text shortened]... as seriously concerned I would start using books and databases - I only play for fun really.
19 Nov 06
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveWell, the real problem is there is no solution. You don't know the real rating of a player.
I can see the reasoning that rating points shouldn't be awarded for unfinished engine games but it still seems unfair that if you have lost points to them it's ok because;
a] your rating will soon go back to what it was.
or
b]it's too much trouble to sort it out.
Like I said before, I don't worry about ratings myself, other than when I am c ...[text shortened]... as seriously concerned I would start using books and databases - I only play for fun really.
You played an engine, and sure enough you probably lost. That's that, your rating isn't wrong.
P-
19 Nov 06
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveI have lost a number of games after making moves while drunk. I have also lost games due to making bad moves due to being hung-over/tired/stoned/distracted.
Maybe, after more games one's rating would revert to 'almost exactly' what it should have been but there would still be an element of falseness to it.
These are all false results, and my rating isn't exactly right. I'm certain that my exactly correct rating is 1893.5.
Please fix this.
Thanks,
D
19 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by RagnorakI think you play a lot of drunks with hangovers who make mistakes as a result, therefore your rating should be 1200. (Just kidding) The thing is though you are right, there are many things that can be considered false. Resignations could actually be considered false if someone resigns a game that there would be no way for you to have won otherwise or a time out might artificially inflate or deflate a rating, so it all averages out. If hypothetically we could do as DR. SL suggests then I believe even if it was perfect without any flaws in the calculations whatsoever, there would still be a problem with ratings calculations when enrolling in tournaments, Can you imagine being disqualified from entering a tourney because suddenly your ratings gained or lost a couple hundred points? To me it just wouldn't make sense. There are certain times when fixing a problem can actually create a problem.
I have lost a number of games after making moves while drunk. I have also lost games due to making bad moves due to being hung-over/tired/stoned/distracted.
These are all false results, and my rating isn't exactly right. I'm certain that my exactly correct rating is 1893.5.
Please fix this.
Thanks,
D