I was over at chessvideos, listening to commentary when I came across this position, with black to move. Black played e5, but I saw another continuation that wasn't considered in the commentary. Nxc3 seems to win a pawn, knight & bishop for rook & two pawns, plus it opens up the knight outpost on D4, and weakens the D3 pawn. Or just a pawn at the cost of two moves, if the knight isn't captured in return. I'm probably a 13-1500 player, so I'm just curious if this is a poor continuation. I could see where the bishop pair for white could potentially hurt black in the continuation I'm looking at, but my gut tells me black gets compensation in white's weakened pawn structure.
Originally posted by TregoFirst let me say, so as to not discouraging you from looking at things, that you should always look at checks and captures first so this is a good instinct.In general even if you get 2 pawns and a rook for 2 minors you should be wary because sometimes they can coordinate extremely well. But in this exact position the refutation is really ...Nxc3, bxc Bxc3, Bh6 and after the bishop takes
[fen]r2q1rk1/pp2ppbp/2n3p1/2pn1b2/P1N5/2PP1NP1/1P3PBP/R1BQR1K1[/fen]
I was over at chessvideos, listening to commentary when I came across this position, with black to move. Black played e5, but I saw another continuation that wasn't considered in the commentary. Nxc3 seems to win a pawn, knight & bishop for rook & two pawns, plus it opens up the knight out ...[text shortened]... ooking at, but my gut tells me black gets compensation in white's weakened pawn structure.
the e rook bxf8 is fine and if the bishop goes back to g7 you just sacked a knight for 2 pawns.
Ahh, Yea, I totally overlooked that move... But hey, that is how we learn. Looking a little deeper, it still looks like it might not be bad, if you take the a1 rook, it pulls the queen off the defense of the d pawn. But I would say its probably not the best continuation. Just for some reason this position with the c3 pawn capture has caught my attention, for better or worse. I'm gonna go fiddle with it in an engine....
1. ... Nxc3, 2. bxc3 Bxc3, 3. Bh6 Bxa1
if 4Bxf8 Kxf8, 5Qxa1 Qxd8 or 4Qxa1 f6 5Bxf8 Kxf8 leaving the d pawn hanging, and attacked by Q and B.
Originally posted by tomtom232Can't believe I missed that, so I guess the best continuation is ...Nxc3, Qb3 Qxe3, bxc Qxc3, Ra3
Except you're wrong. 1...Nxc3 2.bxc3 Bxc3 3.Bh6? (incorrect, just loses time) 3...Re8 4.Rb1 Bxe1 5.Nxe1 Qc7 6.Bf4 e5
which I think is slightly better for whits.
Originally posted by thadeusmanseems like we all did lol. I missed audrey's Nfe5. But after Qb3 how does the simple retreat ...Nd5 look? Qxb7 ...Qc8 Qxc8 ...Raxc8?
Can't believe I missed that, so I guess the best continuation is ...Nxc3, Qb3 Qxe3, bxc Qxc3, Ra3
which I think is slightly better for whits.
Originally posted by tomtom232I think 3.Bh6 is good, but you want to force Black to take the Ra1 (not 4.Rb1?) when his dark squares become seriously weak - something like 3...Re8 4.Ncd2! Bxa1 5.Qxa1 f6 6.Ne4 looks as though it gives White a stable edge (one point being that 6...b6 is met by 7.Nf6! winning the house. e.g. 7...ef 8.Qa2+ Kh8 9.Qf7 Rg8 10.Re8 decides).
Except you're wrong. 1...Nxc3 2.bxc3 Bxc3 3.Bh6? (incorrect, just loses time) 3...Re8 4.Rb1 Bxe1 5.Nxe1 Qc7 6.Bf4 e5
I'm curious though as to the continuation given in the original post after ...e5 - doesn't that drop a pawn? 1...Qc7 looks normal to me.
Originally posted by Trego4. Qxa1 threatens mate on g7 - better than Bxf8 immediately, and White is winning. 4...f6 [edit: 5.Bxf8 6.Kxf8, then] 6.Qa3 Qxd3 7.Qxc5 and White's activity means that the piece is going to be stronger than Black's pawns.
Ahh, Yea, I totally overlooked that move... But hey, that is how we learn. Looking a little deeper, it still looks like it might not be bad, if you take the a1 rook, it pulls the queen off the defense of the d pawn. But I would say its probably not the best continuation. Just for some reason this position with the c3 pawn capture has caught my attention, for b f8 Kxf8, 5Qxa1 Qxd8 or 4Qxa1 f6 5Bxf8 Kxf8 leaving the d pawn hanging, and attacked by Q and B.
Originally posted by Ossea simple move order change fixes that 1...Nxc3 2.bxc3 Bxc3 3.Bh6 Bxe1! if 4.Bxf8 then 4...Bxf2+
I think 3.Bh6 is good, but you want to force Black to take the Ra1 (not 4.Rb1?) when his dark squares become seriously weak - something like 3...Re8 4.Ncd2! Bxa1 5.Qxa1 f6 6.Ne4 looks as though it gives White a stable edge (one point being that 6...b6 is met by 7.Nf6! winning the house. e.g. 7...ef 8.Qa2+ Kh8 9.Qf7 Rg8 10.Re8 decides).
I'm curious though as ...[text shortened]... given in the original post after ...e5 - doesn't that drop a pawn? 1...Qc7 looks normal to me.