04 May 08
hi, as an old dude, I like the French defence, I came across this novelty and would like to know how to refute it, any ideas, most appreciated - kind regards Robert.
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 a6 8.Qd2 b5 9.g3 b4 10.Ne2 a5 11.f5!:
😀
04 May 08
I dont play the French. I doubt you'll find anyone who will take the time to "refute" that line. I looked at all the databases I know of and could only find one game that followed it. Inarkiev-Vitiugov 08
Probably developing your pieces better and playing in the center might find you improvements before move 11. (i.e. 7...cxd4, could probably find something better than 9...b4 etc. )
04 May 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobiefrench defence, pthui! we'll have none of it!
hi, as an old dude, I like the French defence, I came across this novelty and would like to know how to refute it, any ideas, most appreciated - kind regards Robert.
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 a6 8.Qd2 b5 9.g3 b4 10.Ne2 a5 11.f5!:
😀
on a more serious note, it looks to me that all white 'gains' with that sac is: losing the centre (after exf5 d4-pawn goes, and then e5 goes), developing black's light bishop, and opening the flood gates letting forces of mordor storm into kingside. - and where's white king going to go? to get kicked in the face by black pieces on kingside, or stomped by the black pawns marching in on the queenside?
I only glanced at it, and I don't know much anything about the french, but looks to me like white would just implode.
04 May 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDid you try to feed the position to the silicon lions? My Toga is currently munching on it and seems to think that either 11...exf5 or 11...Qb6 is within 1/10 pawn of equality. (Only 16 ply at the moment - my PC isn't exactly a speed demon.)
hi, as an old dude, I like the French defence, I came across this novelty and would like to know how to refute it, any ideas, most appreciated - kind regards Robert.
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 a6 8.Qd2 b5 9.g3 b4 10.Ne2 a5 11.f5!:
😀
04 May 08
Originally posted by Mad RookI doubt anyone has the time to wait until an engine sees far enough to calculate concrete repercussions for losing the center.
Did you try to feed the position to the silicon lions? My Toga is currently munching on it and seems to think that either 11...exf5 or 11...Qb6 is within 1/10 pawn of equality. (Only 16 ply at the moment - my PC isn't exactly a speed demon.)
can someone post the only database game? how did it go? was it even a slow game?
04 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Mad Rookhi, i dont have any databases with any games on them, all i can do is surf the net and pick up games here and there, i just thought it was an interesting position, thats all. what i do know is that it is from a fairly recent match, i will try to retrace my steps and find the details, if anyone is that interested.
Probably the game he had in mind when he said he came across this novelty. 🙂
04 May 08
Originally posted by wormwoodHere's the PGN. It was the Russian Team Championships. Not sure what the time controls were, but I suspect they weren't too fast.
I doubt anyone has the time to wait until an engine sees far enough to calculate concrete repercussions for losing the center.
can someone post the only database game? how did it go? was it even a slow game?
[Event "Russian Team Championship"]
[Site "Dagomys RUS"]
[Date "2008.04.07"]
[EventDate "2008.04.02"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Ernesto Inarkiev"]
[Black "Nikita Vitiugov"]
[ECO "C11"]
[WhiteElo "2684"]
[BlackElo "2617"]
[PlyCount "51"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6
7. Be3 a6 8. Qd2 b5 9. g3 b4 10. Ne2 a5 11. f5 cxd4 12. Nexd4
Nxd4 13. Nxd4 Nxe5 14. O-O-O Bd7 15. Bf4 Nc4 16. Qe2 Qf6
17. Bg2 Be7 18. Rhe1 g5 19. fxe6 Bxe6 20. b3 gxf4 21. bxc4 Bc5
22. cxd5 Bxd4 23. dxe6 Be3+ 24. Kb1 Rc8 25. gxf4 Rc3 26. Qb5+
1-0
04 May 08
Originally posted by Mad Rookwild game! most likely a slow game too...
Here's the PGN. It was the Russian Team Championships. Not sure what the time controls were, but I suspect they weren't too fast.
[Event "Russian Team Championship"]
[Site "Dagomys RUS"]
[Date "2008.04.07"]
[EventDate "2008.04.02"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Ernesto Inarkiev"]
[Black "Nikita Vitiugov"]
[ECO "C11"]
[WhiteElo "2684"]
[Bla ...[text shortened]... c5
22. cxd5 Bxd4 23. dxe6 Be3+ 24. Kb1 Rc8 25. gxf4 Rc3 26. Qb5+
1-0
04 May 08
Originally posted by wormwoodI tried to find the time control, but I simply couldn't find it. And even if it was hidden on the Russian web site, my Russian is nonexistent. I tried Chessbase, TWIC, and Mig's site, and I just couldn't find it.
wild game! most likely a slow game too...
04 May 08
Originally posted by wormwoodYeah, I know engine analysis is somewhat dubious when you're trying to determine strategy.
I doubt anyone has the time to wait until an engine sees far enough to calculate concrete repercussions for losing the center.
Toga actually slightly prefers 11...Qb6 (+0.24 at 17 ply)
For the idea of 11...exf5, it evaluates it as +0.40 at 17 ply. The line continues 12.Nf4 cxd4 13.Nxd4 Nxe5. At this point, White is down two pawns and has no center pawns, and it looks like it takes a good number of moves for White to regain the material.
So who knows, you might be right - strategically, Toga's analysis may not be any good.
04 May 08
Originally posted by Mad RookI would call 9.g3 the "novelty" since its so rarely played and there are 5 moves played more often. At the very least thats where it leaves main lines.
Probably the game he had in mind when he said he came across this novelty. 🙂
Maybe its my unfamiliarity with the french but I dont think 9...b4 looks all that good. I would develop and wait for white to castle queenside before I played it. I would play something like 9...Qb6,Qc7 Be7, Bb7 etc. and I would probably play cxd4 at some point.
05 May 08
Originally posted by savage4731Ah, OK, I guess 9.g3 isn't real common, I'll grant you that. But I was just making a light comment relating to the definition of a novelty. A novelty is usually defined as a shortened version of "theoretical novelty", which is a new move in the opening that's never been played before in recorded games.
I would call 9.g3 the "novelty" since its so rarely played and there are 5 moves played more often. At the very least thats where it leaves main lines.
Since you only found one game in your databases that played 11.f5, it seemed clear to me that that game was the one that probably played the theoretical novelty of 11.f5. (By the way, I found 97 games in the Chessbase Online Database that have played 9.g3. Not a lot of games, but far from a novelty.)
05 May 08
Originally posted by Mad RookI know what a novelty is thats why I put it in quotation marks.
Ah, OK, I guess 9.g3 isn't real common, I'll grant you that. But I was just making a light comment relating to the definition of a novelty. A novelty is usually defined as a shortened version of "theoretical novelty", which is a new move in the opening that's never been played before in recorded games.
Since you only found one game in your databases that ...[text shortened]... essbase Online Database that have played 9.g3. Not a lot of games, but far from a novelty.)