24 Sep 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Paul Leggettmmm, how can this be Leggy for 2...Nc6 does not allow the bind because of ...Qb6 in
At one point (1950's-1960's), the Maroczy Bind was so feared (along with the Richter-Rauzer Attack) that Dragon players moved from the 2. Nc3 to the 2. d6 move order specifically to avoid it.
Funny how the world turns! I think it is valuable to learn both sides of the Maroczy Bind, simply because it is good for your chess. It's practically a laboratory for Hans Kmoch's Pawn Power in Chess in action.
my mind, whereas 2....d6 does. Am i picking this up correctly, for i have been
experimenting with my pieces and board and find that white gets into all sorts of
difficulties when he tries to play the bind after 2...Nc6. Any help in this regard would be
most appreciated for its been driving me mad for two days now. Just by way of
example, check this out,
24 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt depends on what your strengths are- if you are strong at calculation than the najdorf and dragon play right into that. If you are good at planning and strategy the Bind is the way to go. At master level the Bind is playing for two outcomes but below MT. Olympus there are a lot of ways for Black to stir the pot.
yes, but its easier than learning squillions of theory for every new najdorf and dragon
variation, its simply more practical and the variations you need to know in order to get
a playable middle game are minimal, plus, its positionally and strategically sound to do
so. Sicilian traditionally has weakness on d5 square and d6 pawn, in the dragon ...[text shortened]... its strategically sound and
easy to play and for noobs at my level, what more can you ask for!
24 Sep 11
Originally posted by nimzo5yes , that is very true, however i am unlikely to be playing at master level. What about
It depends on what your strengths are- if you are strong at calculation than the najdorf and dragon play right into that. If you are good at planning and strategy the Bind is the way to go. At master level the Bind is playing for two outcomes but below MT. Olympus there are a lot of ways for Black to stir the pot.
my point with regard to the two variations Nimzo, i cannot see how white can play the
bind after 2...Nc6 and come away unscathed. In the 2...d6 lines this is not the case,
black cannot use the queen to pressurise in the same way, in fact, if he tries to take
the b pawn in 2...d6 variations, hes practically toast.
24 Sep 11
1) I don't know who invented the word pressurize, but s/he was no friend to the English language.
2) Why bother with Qb6? After White plays the ugly f3 either e5 or d5 should be sufficent. If we get to Qb6 then White has Nb3 or c3 as options and in my database has scored roughly 45% which is not as bad as one would have thought at first glance.
I think early f3's are almost always suspect in the Sicilian.
I'm curious though about Paul's comment, if he meant Nc6 switching to d6 then I would love to see a game from the era prior where White was able to force the Bind. I wasn't able to find any in a brief search.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe difference is that Black switched from 2. ... Nc6 to 2. ... d6 so that after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6, 5. c4 can't be played.
mmm, how can this be Leggy for 2...Nc6 does not allow the bind because of ...Qb6 in
my mind, whereas 2....d6 does. Am i picking this up correctly, for i have been
experimenting with my pieces and board and find that white gets into all sorts of
difficulties when he tries to play the bind after 2...Nc6. Any help in this regard would be
most astle kingside. im not saying its impossible, just a little unanutural} *[/pgn]
This move order attacks white's e4 pawn, while cutting out tactics based on Nxc6 and e4-e5.
White's best way to defend the e4 pawn is to play 5. Nc3, as Nimzo5's observation about an early f3 is right on the money.
With the old move order 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4, an immediate ...Nf6 was not considered attractive due to the Nxc6 and e4-e5 idea. In the early days black would play 4. d6 followed by Nf6 and then either e6 or g6 to taste.
Either way, after 4. d6 white can play 5. c4, because the e4 pawn is not under attack.
There was a point in time where the Maroczy Bind was considered a virtual refutation of the Dragon (such that the Dragon almost disappeared from tournament praxis), so the 2. ... d6 move order was considered an important innovation.
Some of my older books refer to the 2. ... Nc6 variation as the "Classical Dragon", and the 2. ... d6 move order as the "Modern Dragon", but that distinction has faded away since the 1980's.
Nowadays we mostly see the Classical move order Dragon via 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 d6 5. Nc3 Nf6, where Black will play 6. ... g6 after 6. Be2, while still reserving the option to play 6. ... e6 after 6. Bc4.
Of course, chess theory has evolved considerably in the last 60 years or so, and now the Accelerated Dragon is considered to be entirely acceptable. I think that has much to do with all the advances that have been made in the Symmetrical English, and the Hedgehog in particular, but that is a story for another day.
25 Sep 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Paul LeggettWith all due respect, I dont believe you, nor Nimzo, there is nothing suspect about f3,
The difference is that Black switched from 2. ... Nc6 to 2. ... d6 so that after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6, 5. c4 can't be played.
This move order attacks white's e4 pawn, while cutting out tactics based on Nxc6 and e4-e5.
White's best way to defend the e4 pawn is to play 5. Nc3, as Nimzo5's observation about an early f3 is right o mmetrical English, and the Hedgehog in particular, but that is a story for another day.
its a beautiful move, the f6 Knight is now redundant, reduced to a merely defence
piece, f3 allows c4 creating bind with easy play, did i state that enough times, easy
play against Sicilian traditional weaknesses. No more theory! yes c4 cannot be
played at once, but after f3!! its coming whether black likes it or not!
position after 1.e4 c5, 2.Nf3 d6, 3.d4 cxd4, 4.Nxd4 Nf6, 5.f3 and c4 is coming, with
easy play for white!
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by nimzo5why bother with ...Qb6, because its the best move, that is why bother. I dont believe
1) I don't know who invented the word pressurize, but s/he was no friend to the English language.
2) Why bother with Qb6? After White plays the ugly f3 either e5 or d5 should be sufficent. If we get to Qb6 then White has Nb3 or c3 as options and in my database has scored roughly 45% which is not as bad as one would have thought at first glance.
I thin ...[text shortened]... prior where White was able to force the Bind. I wasn't able to find any in a brief search.
that f3 is suspect in any way, in fact, its positionally and strategically sound, to be
perfectly honest. I would even go so far as to call it a beautiful move! After ...e5, the
white knight is driven to where it want to go, ...d5 cannot be played right away, not
unless of course you want to play with IPQ, and which Sicilian player wants that after
six moves, nope, after any move other than, 2....Nc6, white has easy life, 2...Nc6 is the
most challenging in my humble opinion.
25 Sep 11
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why bother with ...Qb6, because its the best move, that is why bother. I dont believe
that f3 is suspect in any way, in fact, its positionally and strategically sound, to be
perfectly honest. I would even go so far as to call it a beautiful move! After ...e5, the
white knight is driven to where it want to go, ...d5 cannot be played right awa ...[text shortened]... her than, 2....Nc6, white has easy life, 2...Nc6 is the
most challenging in my humble opinion.
What to do after this? take and black has already equalized... Nc3 and then you are saddled with an IKP.
25 Sep 11
6 edits
Originally posted by tomtom232you have just lost two tempi for what reason? so that white can play e5 and Bb5+,
[pgn]1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 d5[/pgn]
What to do after this? take and black has already equalized... Nc3 and then you are saddled with an IKP.
where will your knight go, back to f8 or find itself pinned on d7, did i say it was an
easy way to play for white, dont get any easier than that! equalised two tempi down,
brilliant! neeext!
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobie...Nd7... how about we play an unrated game?
you have just lost two tempi for what reason? so that white can play e5 and Bb5+,
where will your knight go, back to f8 or find itself pinned on d7, did i say it was an
easy way to play for white, dont get any easier than that! equalised two tempi down,
brilliant! neeext!
25 Sep 11
3 edits
Originally posted by tomtom232sure but wait a little while i have enough going on at present, one tournament and about
...Nd7... how about we play an unrated game?
ten other unrated games, i would just like to say that after . . . Nd7, e6 is coming and
if knight goes to e5 you could end up with a position like this,
with easy play for white against backward e pawn
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell then i'll just throw in a Nc6 before d5. What do you do after Nc6?
sure but wait a litle while i have enough going on at present, one tournament and about
ten other uprated games, i would just like to say that after . . . Nd7, e6 is coming and
if knight goes to e5 you could end up with a position like this,
[pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [Ply ...[text shortened]... 7 9. f4 Nec6 10. Nf3 *[/pgn]
with easy play for white against backward e pawn
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThen I'd move my queen to e5 or h5 via a5 maybe or exchange knights and go for a b5 advance or fianchetto my bishop... I have a lot of options in this line and your king is stuck in the middle because castling on either side is dangerous.
our favourite move of course c4!!