10 Apr 07
Originally posted by najdorfslayerYeah that's the feeling I get as well. The true success of an opening is on how many top GMs play it. Even in "those" days I don't think Fischer would have played the black side, though he as happy to mate you if you played it against him.
I think the Dragon is struggling theoretcally at the highest level and a lots of the worlds top adherants like Tiviakov and Federov will only play it via an Accelerated Dragon move order to avoid some of the more difficult lines like 9.0-0-0.........however at our level where we are not blessed with their geneius I think most openings are playable (even the Latvian Gambit!)
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!what do you play against Bc4 as black that is so good?
I don't know what rotk is talking about 9. 0-0-0 is clearly better. I feel very happy when people play 9. Bc4 against me. In response to 9. 0-0-0, the only good move is 9..d5!
I'm not sure I know of a line after 9.0-0-0 d5 that white get any advantage, maybe you could show me a line where white is slightly better tony, please!
10 Apr 07
Originally posted by rotkOkay here goes!!
what do you play against Bc4 as black that is so good?
I'm not sure I know of a line after 9.0-0-0 d5 that white get any advantage, maybe you could show me a line where white is slightly better tony, please!
Black has 2 major responses to 9.0-0-0
1. 9...d5
2. 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6
Against 9...d5? White plays 10.Kb1! (instead of te older Qe1 or exd5)and currently Black is struggling
Against 9.Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 Black again plays 11.Kb1!
Blacks best route to equality in these lines come from delaying castling with 8...Bd7 (as played by Tiviakov)and 9...Rc8
10 Apr 07
I play the dragon often in blitz, tho not much here. Frequently i get discouraged by the beast, but then i think, what's the alternative, the french..nooo. caro....no way, black side of double king pawn, nope, so back to the dragon. dragon players are so comfortable playing against yugoslav, cause that's 90% of what they play against, i'm switching back to classical as white. no point in playing into dragon player's strength. Win lose or draw it's always fun.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by najdorfslayerBlack is fine after 10. Kb1. He can play either into the wild and interesting 10..Nxd4 11. e5! Nf5!? 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nxd5 Qxd5!? 14. Qxd5 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxd1 16. Qxd1 Be6! with a complicated game where Black has good play, or he can play the more risky but less forcing 10..Rb8!? Both moves have been played at top levels. I even asked GM Shabalov, a known proponent of the Dragon, and he said both are fine. I agree with NajdorfSlayer about #2 though, 9..Nxd4 isn't great after 11. Kb1!
Okay here goes!!
Black has 2 major responses to 9.0-0-0
1. 9...d5
2. 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6
Against 9...d5? White plays 10.Kb1! (instead of te older Qe1 or exd5)and currently Black is struggling
Against 9.Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 Black again plays 11.Kb1!
Blacks best route to equality in these lines come from delaying castling with 8...Bd7 (as played by Tiviakov)and 9...Rc8
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by rotkI just play the main line Soltis Variation with all the ..h5 business. I think that the time wasted by White to put his bishop on the a2-g8 diagonal doesn't compensate for it's effectiveness on this square. The irony is that it almost always gets exchanged off for a knight that lands on c4. I think the strongest line for White in the whole Yugoslav complex is:
what do you play against Bc4 as black that is so good?
I'm not sure I know of a line after 9.0-0-0 d5 that white get any advantage, maybe you could show me a line where white is slightly better tony, please!
9. 0-0-0 d5! 10. ed Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4! when my favorite response is 12..Nxc3!?, but the more popular and accepted move is 12..e5, when White of course plays 13. Bc5.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I thought that 10. Kb1 didn't pose any real threats, I remember reading an article in chess life about this variation; that it isn't "supposed" to be dangerous for black, but Shabalov was able to beat keaton with it in the game they showed.
Black is fine after 10. Kb1. He can play either into the wild and interesting 10..Nxd4 11. e5! Nf5!? 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nxd5 Qxd5!? 14. Qxd5 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxd1 16. Qxd1 Be6! with a complicated game where Black has good play, or he can play the more risky but less forcing 10..Rb8!? Both moves have been played at top levels. I even asked GM Shabalov, a known pr ...[text shortened]... d both are fine. I agree with NajdorfSlayer about #2 though, 9..Nxd4 isn't great after 11. Kb1!
I do play the soltis variation, but need to learn how to attack the king a little more. the reason I say 9. 0-0-0 is drawish is because it is more of a positional battle and not an all out attack on the king. At least the games I've played are, but I haven't played that many against 9. 0-0-0, so I guess I shouldn't be saying too much about it.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by rotki think the fact that it's positional is what makes it dangerous. What Dragon players wants to accept a positions where his dynamism is stinted and White is playing for a long grind? Not so fun.
I thought that 10. Kb1 didn't pose any real threats, I remember reading an article in chess life about this variation; that it isn't "supposed" to be dangerous for black, but Shabalov was able to beat keaton with it in the game they showed.
I do play the soltis variation, but need to learn how to attack the king a little more. the reason I say 9. 0-0-0 is dr ...[text shortened]... 't played that many against 9. 0-0-0, so I guess I shouldn't be saying too much about it.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!In the line you suggest with 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5! after 16...Be6! can't White play 17.Bd3 Rfd7 18.h4! which is much better for White?
Black is fine after 10. Kb1. He can play either into the wild and interesting 10..Nxd4 11. e5! Nf5!? 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nxd5 Qxd5!? 14. Qxd5 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxd1 16. Qxd1 Be6! with a complicated game where Black has good play, or he can play the more risky but less forcing 10..Rb8!? Both moves have been played at top levels. I even asked GM Shabalov, a known pr ...[text shortened]... d both are fine. I agree with NajdorfSlayer about #2 though, 9..Nxd4 isn't great after 11. Kb1!
I agree wth you on the second move I think 10...Rb8!? is the best try
But I feel you know more about this than me so I will bow down to your greater experience!!
Most of my experience with the Dragon is only really with White not Black.
Tooooo much theory!!
11 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by najdorfslayerI dunno if that's really all that better for White. After 16..Be6! 17. Bd3 Rfd8 18. h4!? (Qe2 is I believe the main line) I think I would just continue with 18..Rd6!? , looking to swing over to b6 and force b3. Once I do this I start my attack with ..a5, and if you let me open up the a-file, black is probably even better. The one thing I really like about this line for Black is that White has a hard time making progress on the kingside, because he has no way of dealing with the Bg7, which is an awesome defender. Lets say you get in h5, hg and you bring your queen to the h-file, what do you do? Ok, I can let you play Qh7+ and then after Kf8 I chuckle because you can't make any progress. 😀
In the line you suggest with 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5! after 16...Be6! can't White play 17.Bd3 Rfd7 18.h4! which is much better for White?
I agree wth you on the second move I think 10...Rb8!? is the best try
But I feel you know more about this than me so I will bow down to your greater experience!!
Most of my experience with the Dragon is only really with White not Black.
Tooooo much theory!!
EDIT: Just to humor myself, I looked at all my Dragon games as Black on ICC in the last couple months. Out of 72 games (roughly 10% of all), I scored 66%, with an performance rating of nearly 2100, with my avg rating during that period being 1905.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Okay, remind me to never play a Yugosalv Attack against you!
I dunno if that's really all that better for White. After 16..Be6! 17. Bd3 Rfd8 18. h4!? (Qe2 is I believe the main line) I think I would just continue with 18..Rd6!? , looking to swing over to b6 and force b3. Once I do this I start my attack with ..a5, and if you let me open up the a-file, black is probably even better. The one thing I really like about t ...[text shortened]... , with an performance rating of nearly 2100, with my avg rating during that period being 1905.
11 Apr 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I need to look through PTSD some more - I just find that I don't particularly like to look through books, because I play it out on a comp. anyway to save the lines - which is one reason I'm getting PTQG on CD.
I dunno if that's really all that better for White. After 16..Be6! 17. Bd3 Rfd8 18. h4!? (Qe2 is I believe the main line) I think I would just continue with 18..Rd6!? , looking to swing over to b6 and force b3. Once I do this I start my attack with ..a5, and if you let me open up the a-file, black is probably even better. The one thing I really like about t ...[text shortened]... , with an performance rating of nearly 2100, with my avg rating during that period being 1905.