20 Mar 10
1 edit
No1home: Actually, I think you are the one who doesn't understand.
You're right, such a debate would only occur on the internet. Why? Because it isn't allowed in OTB chess.
Correspondence chess is completely different. You are allowed to use analysis boards, databases, books, and other resources. The rules are simply not the same.
If you want to play with the rules that are present in OTB chess, I suggest you go play in a real OTB tournament. I agree that I wouldn't feel it was quite right if people in a tournament of mine agreed on two six move draws. However, I don't feel it's worth changing the rules, because so far, I haven't seen any suggestion that is completely fair to all concerned.
20 Mar 10
Originally posted by clandarkfireRules might be different, but chess ethics are the same. What is being done is disrespectful to the other players and to the game itself.
No1home: Actually, I think you are the one who doesn't understand.
You're right, such a debate would only occur on the internet. Why? Because it isn't allowed in OTB chess.
Correspondence chess is completely different. You are allowed to use analysis boards, databases, books, and other resources. The rules are simply not the same.
If you wan ...[text shortened]... , because so far, I haven't seen any suggestion that is completely fair to all concerned.
To be clear, only on the internet are there any serious proportion of players who would not be disgusted with such behavior. It isn't allowed in OTB chess because it's unethical, not for any reason having to do with the recognized desire for analytical tools in CC. There is nothing in the nature of CC which should radically vary the ethics of chess. That people who are profoundly ignorant of those ethics think virtually anything goes in CC is to their discredit.
The USCF actually has rules for internet chess and CC. They explicitly state that rules of play for OTB apply with specific extensions spelled out in the rules. If the people who ran RHP knew anything about chess, they'd do something about these reoccurring ethical violations (including short draws, deliberately losing to another player, sandbagging, etc.). And if the other users had any respect for other players and the game itself, they'd insist the Site Admins do so.
20 Mar 10
Originally posted by amolv06I'm fairly certain you have little knowledge of chess ethics. You should ask some experienced players what they would think of two players agreeing to 6 moves draws just so they could both advance in a tournament.
I'm fairly certain I'm not an imaginary chess player.
20 Mar 10
Originally posted by clandarkfireI think we have all established and agreed that no RHP rules had been violated. This is not so much about the rules, surely. Things you mention are in no way in the same category. That's like comparing triangles with oranges
Correspondence chess is completely different. You are allowed to use analysis boards, databases, books, and other resources. The rules are simply not the same.
20 Mar 10
I keep seeing gp34 mentioned. What have I done wrong this time?
I offered Paul a draw as one game still in theory heading for a horrid tame postion.
In the other I liked his position even though I'm a pawn up.
(I would have played on as Black he has all the chances).
I was losing 3 other games at this time, a few others were 'iffy'.
Felt it best to expend time and effort on these.
I managed to win one and draw others. Won the rest.
I entered this tournament in a moment of chess madness because I liked the TC
and they were one player short. I was the last to enter.
Did not think about the final till I saw others cutting each other's throats.
Found myself in Final v Swiss Gambit.
Won one game making just 1 move of my own. Game 7232395
(the other 20-odd moves came from Nunn's book on the Pirc. I mention this
to show the main difference between here and OTB).
Lost other cos I went for tricky traps. (and he played kind of well).
We are playing again.
I'm not in favour of these quick draws, it is unfair on the
other players, but there is not much you can do about it.
Name and Shame, that's about it.
If they added a rule that draws under 10 moves will be scrutinised and if
the mods decree the players were not trying they would be tossed out of the tournament.
The players can do a well known perpetual. The are dozens to choose from.
As I said in that old thread. The sharp guys will always find a way around it.
However, If you do find a solution then patent it.
21 Mar 10
Originally posted by Renarshuh ?? you're giving me a lesson in being biased ? interesting... how did me being biased manifest?
I only said that 'cause it was followed (edit - well, actually preceded) by 'top players' as if they deserve special treatment or that we should take that into account when discussing this topic.. yes, I have also drawn and been close head-to-head in one or two tournaments, where (post middle game) drawing was a lifeline.. can share your sentiment, but that' ...[text shortened]... et my posts !!! [/i]
we're so sensitive, aren't we.. {do I get a forum ban for this??}
Here is what I meant: Since you don't agree with me about the draws, you keep making my posts try to come out different from what I am saying. That was the only bias I am referring to. When you begin to rewrite Marauder's posts too, then the bias will disappear. 🙂
21 Mar 10
Originally posted by amolv06I agree with this important distinction. I don't fault anyone making a draw if it is in their interest to do so, but prearranging a game is absolutely unethical. In a tournament, my goal is to win the tournament, and if I consider a draw as my best option in any particular game, I would do it.
It is the standard here. Or at least its not against the rules.
And whether or not its unethical is largely subjective. Pre-determining the course of a game, I agree, is unethical. Agreeing to a short draw in game is not, to me.
That said, I like to play, and I am far more likely to lose an equal position where I press too much- a character flaw I have learned to live with.
Paul
21 Mar 10
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Originally posted by no1marauderAre we referring to another thread here? As far as I know, I am the only person who cited any rules here, and it was only the broad rule about unethical conduct. I am unaware of any specific rule about short draws- I have perused the FIDE rules and found none, (edit:although there are provisons for TD to make rules about draws for a tournament if they are announced ahead of time). My up to date version of the USCF rules it at the club, but I can check it on Thursday. My point is that I am not sure that this post is technically accurate.
It's "subjective" to people who are unfamiliar with the standards of chess. The specific FIDE and USCF rules have been cited; just because your standards are in conflict with the standards of the proper governing boards of chess doesn't mean your uninformed opinion is as valid as their rules.
21 Mar 10
2 edits
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromficswell, I'm an ESL so I can be forgiven then, however:
Here is what I meant: Since you don't agree with me about the draws, you keep making my posts try to come out different from what I am saying. That was the only bias I am referring to.
Definitions of biased on the Web:
favoring one person or side over another
so if I was advocating your position then I wouldn't be biased? 😉 I'm not *trying* anything, Paul, people can read for themselves and make their own judgement on where they stand, it's not like we're in a court and only my voice gets heard and only my (biased?) interpretation of what you had said or meant.
Can I just try and ask you (since you're an OTB player, I'm reading, I'm not, have only properly played chess on RHP, before that only 20 odd games in total) - do you believe that the FIDE/USCF rules referred to and quoted here are essentially wrong (perhaps outdated? ambiguous? inconclusive?) and should therefore be scrapped? I'd like to believe you follow those OTB rules not only 'cause they are rule per se, but also 'cause they're in line with your own 'unwritten' rules of conduct, your ethics.
p.s.
in case this boils down to technicalities - I don't see *any* difference between pre-arranged pre-game draws and 5 move draws
21 Mar 10
Originally posted by greenpawn34rgr that;
I keep seeing gp34 mentioned. What have I done wrong this time?
I offered Paul a draw as one game still in theory heading for a horrid tame postion.
In the other I liked his position even though I'm a pawn up.
(I would have played on as Black he has all the chances).
I was losing 3 other games at this time, a few others were 'iffy'.
Felt it best ...[text shortened]... s will always find a way around it.
However, If you do find a solution then patent it.
On the other hand, particularly in the RHP duel tourneys I enter, this Beastie would love to see the two strongest players drawing this way or that, for then I could possibly have the chance to play against both of them and get an even higher Opponent Av. Rating😵
BTW, what happened wi that lil wee horsie??
😵
21 Mar 10
Originally posted by no1marauderIt boils down that one can actually do nothing to prevent the draws. If both players want to draw because they feel that this way serves bet their interests, they will do so in 6, 66 or 666 moves. You don't like it, I don't like it, nobody likes it, but an option it will remain because there is no way to do actually nothing regarding this matter. Since the rules tolerate it, the early drawing players are violating nothing although their strategy is not of your taste and of my taste.
Rules might be different, but chess ethics are the same. What is being done is disrespectful to the other players and to the game itself.
To be clear, only on the internet are there any serious proportion of players who would not be disgusted with such behavior. It isn't allowed in OTB chess because it's unethical, not for any ...[text shortened]... had any respect for other players and the game itself, they'd insist the Site Admins do so.
Methinks your projection about the seemingly evaporated "respect for oher players and the game itself" is merely a projection of your own mind. My own projection is that the early drawing players feel that they are not well prepared to face each other and they want to postpone their duel because they want to postpone a probable loss. Why should I fear two feared players if I feel that my preparation is OK? Because they have a bigger oh the horror RHP rating than I?
😵
21 Mar 10
Originally posted by no1marauderI suspect the reason that no rule is in place regarding agreed draws is because it would be easy to circumvent. All one has to do is agree beforehand to go into Seirawan's forced draw in the Austrian Attack and the game lasts 13 moves. It is not always possible to make a rule that can be effectively policed. I susppose one could ban the Austrian Attack but that would just result in loud cheers from those who play the Pirc.
Rules might be different, but chess ethics are the same. What is being done is disrespectful to the other players and to the game itself.
To be clear, only on the internet are there any serious proportion of players who would not be disgusted with such behavior. It isn't allowed in OTB chess because it's unethical, not for any ...[text shortened]... had any respect for other players and the game itself, they'd insist the Site Admins do so.
21 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Paul LeggettDo you find USCF Rule 20L ambiguous:
Are we referring to another thread here? As far as I know, I am the only person who cited any rules here, and it was only the broad rule about unethical conduct. I am unaware of any specific rule about short draws- I have perused the FIDE rules and found none, (edit:although there are provisons for TD to make rules about draws for a tournament if they ...[text shortened]... an check it on Thursday. My point is that I am not sure that this post is technically accurate.
20L. Manipulating Results. Collusion to fix or throw games,whether before or during the game, in order to manipulate prize money, title norms, ratings, or for any other purpose is illegal and may result in severe sanctions, including revocation of USCF membership.
(emphasis in body added)
Certainly a practice that can get your membership in a national organization revoked would fall under the rubric of conduct "bringing disrepute to the game" and thus banned under the FIDE rule as well.