Originally posted by tmetzlerUsing the waybackmachine website, I found some archived links from 1999 and later...
Agreed,
Ed, If these really did take place. Can you post the link to at least one 3rd party news article regarding them? I can't believe that such large real in-person tournaments would have taken place completely under the nose of journalists.
http://web.archive.org/web/20000417072207/http://www.gothicchess.com/index.html
http://web.archive.org/web/19991105021506/www.gothicchess.com/p1998120701.html
http://web.archive.org/web/19991007043209/www.gothicchess.com/roster.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20010202232600/www.gothicchess.com/tournaments/t1.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20010206043538/www.gothicchess.com/ratings.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20010405221429/http://www.gothicchess.com/
Well that's a start. I can find more recent ones also.
I apologise, I have found some evidence that a Gothic Chess tournament did take place prior to 2004. The First International Gothic Chess Open started on 17th March, 2003:
http://tinyurl.com/ym7d6v
If I read the site correctly, the player called "GothicChessPro", who is currenly leading section 2, is Ed Trice.
As I said before, I only offer or accept wagers that I can afford, and I freely admit I would find it far too embarrassing to be on the losing side of your suggestion.
If you really have got sponsors for the proposed Fischer match, which is possible since you undoubtedly visted Iceland and met with some people representing Fischer, then I hope for your sake that you did not make up stories about non-existent tournaments with hundreds of participents, as you will be found out.
More pictures of old tournaments, which I just moved into a new directory:
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/biju2.gif
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/championship_room.gif
This next one is from 2001, at Bartel Hall, when Naka was still in HIgh School and "only" a master.
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/conor.gif
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/dave_bryan.gif
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/ed_dave.gif
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/elliot_dave.gif
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/gothic_board.gif
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/gothic_kids.jpg
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/gothic2k.jpg
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/sn3.gif
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/supernats.gif
And imagine my surprise when I found out a Penthouse Pet was playing in one of our tournaments. Her name was Victoria Zdrok or something like that. Anyway, it turns out she is a lawyer AND a doctor also, very, very smart. She agreed to do a photo shoot wearing one of our T-shirts, back when we were "GothicChess.org"
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/gothic_girl_02_1440x900.jpg
Originally posted by EdTriceOk, from the top:
I would like "Fat Lady" to comment on the newer set of pictures I have furnished.
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/biju2.gif
I see two people playing Gothic Chess
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/championship_room.gif
I see no people playing Gothic Chess
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/conor.gif
I see three Gothic Chess boards, two people playing on one and what looks like a game in progress on another. The third board is in its initial position. If that really is Hikaru Nakamura there then you should publicise the fact that he's played Gothic Chess as he's pretty famous.
The next few pictures aren't very interesting. Just a few games in each one.
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/gothic_kids.jpg
Ok, this one is different. I think I can see about fifteen people in this picture, if they're all playing in a Gothic Chess tournament then that's the highest figure so far.
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/gothic2k.jpg
I'd really like to know where this picture was published. I did see it before when I was searching for information about Gothic Chess and found this quote (from 2005).
"The Gothic Chess Federation now has just under 20,000 paying members, about 1/3rd the size of the entire United States Chess Federation."
I'm getting used to the large numbers being bandied about, but could you confirm if this one is true Ed?
I have to admit that this picture of you being awarded the Chancellor's Cup creeps me out. Until now I've just thought it was a case of you exaggerating the numbers of people attending tournaments, and possibly making up tournaments which didn't take place. But if this picture isn't genuine then it takes the deceit to a completely different level.
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/sn3.gif
There are at least four games of Gothic Chess being played in this picture. I can't see what the people at the back are doing, but it doesn't seem to be related to chess as they are standing / walking.
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/supernats.gif
Here we have three games of Gothic Chess being played in the foreground. A very empty looking hall and some chairs / tables in one corner. There could well be three or four games of Gothic Chess being played there but it's difficult to make out.
Ok Ed - I've looked at the pictures and I can't see anything to support your assertion that Gothic Chess tournaments with hundreds of participants have taken place.
Originally posted by Fat LadySo what you are telling me is, only the people in the camera's view finder are playing Gothic Chess, so we rented out these large spaces for nothing?
Ok, from the top:
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/biju2.gif
I see two people playing Gothic Chess
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/championship_room.gif
I see no people playing Gothic Chess
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/conor.gif
I see three Gothic Chess boards, two people playing on one and what looks lik ...[text shortened]... that Gothic Chess tournaments with hundreds of participants have taken place.
The picture about Nakamara was at Supernationals II in Bartel Hall where we were also. He was playing in the High School Championship for regular chess. We were running our 1st big Gothic Chess tournament. That is where I met Bruce Pandolfini for the first time.
You keep talking about deceit, deceit, deceit, yet these are actual pictures I spent about half an hour looking for today.
I really think you have some form of trust issues, or a complex of sorts.
Get a hold of the December 2000 issue of Chess Life magazine. Look at our full page ad on the inside back cover.
Gothic Chess has been around for 6 years now. We have run tournaments. I showed you pictures.
Before you just thought we never did anything before 2004. Once I refuted that, now you say we had tournaments, but only the small subset of the entire playing population (which fill the background) are enumerated as being actual participants.
But everytime I post something, your requests become more granular, and are latent with even more skepticism.
Therefore, I can only conclude that you do not consider anything that I post "real". I will no longer try and convince you of anything, believe what you want.
Just don't watch a movie called "The Matrix", it may send you over the edge.
Originally posted by Fat LadyYeah, I'm with the Laddy on this one. Honestly - if there really was a tournament with thousands of players playing some new form of chess it would have been mentioned in every major American newspaper, not to mention on every major chess website - Playchess and ICC should DEFINITELY have something if it really did occur. Yet all you come up with is about 10 pictures showing no significant evidence that thousands of people gathered to play GOTHIC chess - for all we know these massive halls may be rented for a regular chess tournament and you happened to convince some people to give Gothic Chess a try and photograph them. Fire your cameraman, he should have got a wide pan view of thousands playing. I don't believe you Ed, and you still haven't come up with an article that supports your claims.
Ok Ed, I won't bother asking you any more questions. Anyone who is interested enough will read this thread and draw their own conclusions about who's being deceitful.
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http://www.gothicchess.com/images/old_events/sn3.gif
I like this one, I really enjoy the fact that theres a plant in the middle of the floor 😛
The last two tournament pictures are clearly of the same boards but from different view points. The players are the same, that distinctive chair is in both and the "chess" magazine appears in both.
The only thing that would support that there are a large number of Gothic chess players is that in the second to last picture you can see a large box on the floor which seems to contain a chess board(s?). In the last picture theres several of large boxes in the middle of the floor each might contain chess sets/boards but 1000?......probably not.
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Bored and decided to dig around, turned up this
http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/chess/chessvari.html#gothic
Gothic Chess
Gothic Chess is played on a 10x8 board. The game uses the additional pieces the archbishop (with powers of bishop plus knight) and chancellor (rook plus knight). These extra pieces are the same as those which Capablanca once suggested should be used in a larger version of chess.
The game is organised by the Gothic Chess Federation who you can find here ...
The Gothic Chess Association is now taking entries for their 2000 play-by-email championship. The total prize fund is $17,000. There are already around 30 registered entries, including players from a dozen different countries. The 1999 event was won by Rafal Furdzik.
On the Gothic Chess site you can find out more about this tournament. The site also has rules and annotated games, and information about how to join the Gothic Chess and buy Gothic Chess equipment.
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http://www.uschess.org/org/govern/ebmeeting010120a.html
This is intresting 🙂
22 I put an anecdote in here about what
23 happened recently. We had a vendor come in and show
24 us their product. And we said to them: You know,
25 are you talking about Gothic Chess? Yeah, Gothic
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1 Chess. They came in, showed us our set, said why
2 don't you buy it. They will sell it to us for $10
3 which means they are making something on that. So
4 on our pricing structure we would have put it on the
5 market for $10.
6 MR. LOOMIS: That's not member pricing.
7 Member price would have been less.
8 MR. DEFEIS: Member price would have been
9 less. And most of our buyers are members, so we
10 have got $6 every time we sell one of these things.
11 So Gothic Chess and we talked about it, well, gee,
12 how many could we expect to sell. We got to make
13 decisions on what we carry, not that it's a good
14 book or it's goods - I mean, we do have some chess
15 aficionados in the office that say you got to carry
16 this book. How many will you sell? Well, you will
17 sell one or two; but I will buy it. Vince Clem, you
18 know, he will buy - every book we sent to him it's
19 you gotta carry this book. We say how many of these
20 games will we sell. He wants to sell a hundred over
21 the course of a year. Okay. We will sell a
22 hundred. We will get a hundred sales. We are going
23 to net $6 to $10 if we get some nonmembers so $600
24 or 1,000.
25 Remember we got to do a purchase order for
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1 that product. We got to make sure they send it. We
2 got to ship it and all those things we do. We said,
3 well, maybe this is a product that's new on the
4 market. Let's talk to them about taking an ad in
5 Chess Life, and we did. And they said, oh, gee, we
6 are allowed to do that, put other product in your
7 catalogue? I said, yeah, you want to reach our
8 membership, sure. They said we thought you required
9 us that you had to resell it. I said no, no. Maybe
10 there was some perception about that; but no, you
11 can buy an ad. They said sure, we will buy an ad.
12 So they bought a full-page color ad at a cost of
13 $5,000. And then, you know, I said, gee, do you
14 know how many of these products we would have to
15 sell to get this $5,000? I mean, we were going to
16 print Page 67 anyway with probably a house they
17 had. So maybe they lost some sales in what we would
18 have advertised ourselves which this way is the way
19 we - we I think need to go longer term. Our
20 competency is not running books and equipment and
21 operation, and I don't think it should be relative
22 to our strategic mission. Our competency is our
23 membership, our USCF brand name, our membership.
24 People want to reach that, and we have the vehicle
25 to reach it. And it's a lot easier to manage taking
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1 a camera-ready ad and printing in our publication
2 and taking five grand and putting it in the bank
3 than to order 10 and see how they do.
4 Anyway, so I am suggesting that we - and
5 we have strategically made decisions there is a way
6 relative to taking the ads in our catalog. You know
7 someone said you are putting ads there? Well, we
8 are taking ads in Chess Life anyway. So ads in
9 catalog are not different than other organizations
10 do. Our membership, that's the value. And that's
11 what people will pay to reach. Gothic Chess paid
12 5,000 to reach that membership. So I am suggesting
13 that we have to begin not providing these good
14 things to our members but look at how they could be
15 provided by someone whose core competency is running
16 a book store
OK, my turn to the play the "negative implication game". To make it easier for you, just refute these statements "by number" in your replies.
1. If there is no real wordlwide interest in Gothic Chess, why a complete page in German?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Chess
2. If there is no real wordlwide interest in Gothic Chess, why were there programmers from 4 different countries competing in the Gothic Chess Computer World Championship in 2004?
http://www.chessville.com/GothicChess/ComputerWorldChampionships.htm
3. If there is no real wordlwide interest in Gothic Chess, why is there such an elaborate discussion on this French bulletin board?
http://www.france-echecs.com/index.php?mode=showComment&art=20051223003156261
4. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, why do we have our own dedicated real-time play site with 1900+ games played?
http://www.gothicchesslive.com/all-players-games.php
5. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, how could we possibly dedicate the man-hours to create a strong Gothic Chess program with an attractive g.u.i and also custom tablebases allowing it to announce a mate in 268 moves?
http://www.gothicchess.com/gv_release.html
6. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, how could we possibly convince Frank Camaratta of the House Of Staunton to design elaborate wooden chess sets to sell for $1000+?
http://www.gothicchess.com/images/staunton_gothic.jpg
7. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, why were we in Iceland to meet with Fridrik Olafsson and Bobby Fischer?
http://www.gothicchess.com/news.html
8. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, why did Anatoly Karpov sign this?
http://www.gothicchess.com/zmnxcbv.html
9. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, why did GM Susan Polgar comment favorably on it on this page with all of her chess games?
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=15162/&kpage=220
10. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, why did the International Compuer Games Association Journal allow this published paper on it in 2004?
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/icga/journal/contents/content27-2.htm
11. If there is no real wordlwide interest in Gothic Chess, why a complete page in Russian?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Chess
12. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, why did Mark Glickman, mathematics professor and author of the new rating system used by the USCF, bother to mention us in his paper in 1999?
http://math.bu.edu/people/mg/glicko/glicko.doc/glicko.html
13. If there is no real interest in Gothic Chess, why were we mentioned in the FIDE meeting held just in June of 2006?
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:krXvdnJ2XOsJ:www.fide.com/news/download/annexes/ga2006/annex48.pdf+Gothic+Chess&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=78
I think I'll stop there for now.
Originally posted by EdTriceHaven't had the chance to read through all of these site. Probably will do that this evening at home. But from the few webpages that I've browsed through so far, looks quite convincing to me. Of course someone mentioned to me recently that it is very easy to create impressive webpages these days. However, I don't know much about creation of webpages, so as far as I am concerned, the gothic chess thing is convincingly real. Not sure about Fischer-Karpov becoming a reality though. But I am fascinated with this version of chess nonetheless.
OK, my turn to the play the "negative implication game". To make it easier for you, just refute these statements "by number" in your replies.
1. If there is no real wordlwide interest in Gothic Chess, why a complete page in German?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Chess
2. If there is no real wordlwide interest in Gothic Chess, why were there pro ...[text shortened]... 2006/annex48.pdf+Gothic+Chess&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=78
I think I'll stop there for now.
Over to you, Fat Lady and Bedlam!