Originally posted by ilywrinI've had a good look, and it is at worst a mating attack, and at best we'd lose multiple pieces, so we definitely want to avoid that.
You are right. Rh7? is a weak move... However my preliminary analysis shows that there's Re8! (protecting the pawn e6 after Qf7 + Kd8)... I will look it and post my verdict tomorrow
This is what we'd be looking at (possible alternative is 15 ...Kf8, either way we're toast)
12... Qb6 13. O-O-O Be7 14. Rg4 Ngf6 15. Rxg7 Bf8 16. Rxf7 Kxf7 17. Qg6+ Ke7 18. Ne5
Personally, I think that rules out 12 ...Qb6 and even 12 ...Qa5+ 13. Bd2 Qb6 doesn't look much better.
So I think our remaining 2 options are 12 ...Qa5+ and 12 ...Bd6.
I still favour 12 ...Bd6 13. Bxd6 Qxd6 14. Ne4 Qb4+ because his replies are moving 1 of the knights to either d2 or c3, or blocking with his queen (15 Qc3). This is better because we either get a chance to develop our last knight or capture his queen resulting in the chance to develop the knight. Another factor is that one of his knights will be pushed back to c3, which takes him further off the front foot. If he chooses against the queen exchange, then we can easily move our queen back into the action.
I think this line leaves us in the most clearcut even position we could hope for. Can somebody double check my line? 😉
At last the game has gotten interesting. 😛
D
Originally posted by RagnorakOk I'll try to cover this. He will brink the rook in behind the pawn before he pushes it if we play the knight to g4. If you grab that pawn it will waste a move. It will allow him to push his pawn and rook and develop that file faster. He will move the bishop and point it at the corner opening his rook and cutting off our option to castle queenside. Then he pushes the pawn, and then he finds the knight trade, but by then it will be on his terms. I like a buyers market myself.
Game 868388
Here's Nyxie's proposed game in pgn format for copying into something like chesspad...
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. Qxd3 Qc7 11. Rh4 e6 12. Bf4 Qa5+ 13. Bd2 Qb5 14. Qxb5 cxb5 15. O-O-O Be7 16. Rhh1 Ngf6 17. Ne5 Nxe5 18. dxe5 Ng4 19. Rhf1 O-O-O
I've run through ...[text shortened]... e king side of the board, and a stronger pawn formation, so I'd be for castling king side.
D
The reason the castle is queenside is because he has a bunch of pieces on the king side to go along with ours. If we castle kingside his forces will be bearing down on us. Castling queenside will slow down the development of his bishop and rook pair he has next to his king, and will allow us to double our rooks faster while grabbing the semiopen file.
ok I'm horible at explaining stuff, I hope this helps.
Nyxie
Game 868388
Ragnorak's analysis looks dead on the money to me. 12 ...Bd6 best move on the board. It develops our kingside, it almost forces white to trade bishops, and we get to trade off another white piece. That helps since we're so far behind in development. Bd6 does the most for our position.
White has no attack here. If he starts any trouble we're not going to defend, we'll just absorb his attack and trade off the pieces one by one. Keep a nice solid pawn structure and play even in the endgame.
We're gonna drag him down to our level... and beat him with experience! 🙂
After the bishop trade he'll attack our queen and gain time with a knight on d4. Nyxie's right, we may 0-0-0 here soon. But I'm not 100% sold on that.
Originally posted by wibI think we'd be better off to trade the queen then the bishop.
Game 868388
Ragnorak's analysis looks dead on the money to me. 12 ...Bd6 best move on the board. It develops our kingside, it almost forces white to trade bishops, and we get to trade off another white piece. That helps since we're so far behind in development. Bd6 does the most for our position.
White has no attack here. If he starts any t ...[text shortened]... ith a knight on d4. Nyxie's right, we may 0-0-0 here soon. But I'm not 100% sold on that.
Nyxie
Originally posted by NyxieBut if we trade the queen according to your line, we weaken our pawn structure by creating a doubled pawn. This is the type of weakness that IM will exploit to the fullest.
I think we'd be better off to trade the queen then the bishop.
Nyxie
I couldn't quite figure out your explanation. Sorry. Could you write it in notation? [EDIT] If you copy the game (up to the point where ur line starts) into chesspad, then you can just make the moves on the board and then copy the game as pgn, to save you having to type it up.
Your reasoning for castling queen side looks sound. We can discuss that particular decision some more when we reach it.
D
I thought I had put the notation in earlier. The doubled pawn lays on his castled side, this is not quite as weak as a doubled pawn on the other side. If we castle queenside the king is there to asist the pawns at a later time. I would feel more comfortable having our rooks and king facing his. I think if you castle kingside his bishop rook pawn and knight combination will overpower us. I think ironman is better at storming a castled king corner then we will be at defending it.
1.e2-e4 c7-c6 2.d2-d4 d7-d5 3.Nb1-c3 d5xe4 4.Nc3xe4 Bc8-f5 5.Ne4-g3 Bf5-g6 6.Ng1-f3 Nb8-d7 7.h2-h4 h7-h6 8.h4-h5 Bg6-h7 9.Bf1-d3 Bh7xd3 10.Qd1xd3 Qd8-c7 11.Rh1-h4 e7-e6 12.Bc1-f4 Qc7-a5+ 13.Bf4-d2 Qa5-b5 14.Qd3xb5 c6xb5 15.O-O-O Bf8-e7 16.Rh4-h1 Ng8-f6 17.Nf3-e5 Nd7xe5 18.d4xe5 Nf6-g4 19.Rh1-f1 O-O-O 20.f2-f4 Rd8-d7 21.Ng3-e4 Rh8-d8
This is my take on the caro kann up to the castle and doubled rooks.
Nyxie
Originally posted by NyxieThis is not a forced variant and it is easy for White to go astray by say 15.Rd1 instead 15.O-O-O, etc, or 17. Rhe1 (assuming 15.O-O-O has been played). In any case we will have a hard struggle for draw for deffecting our pawn structure (one weakness that needs constatnt care) and we would be taking the defensive stance.
12.Bc1-f4 Qc7-a5+ 13.Bf4-d2 Qa5-b5 14.Qd3xb5 c6xb5 15.O-O-O Bf8-e7 16.Rh4-h1 Ng8-f6 17.Nf3-e5 Nd7xe5 18.d4xe5 Nf6-g4 19.Rh1-f1 O-O-O 20.f2-f4 Rd8-d7 21.Ng3-e4 Rh8-d8
This is my take on the caro kann up to the castle and doubled rooks.
Nyxie
I prefer Ragnarok's idea 12...Bd6 13.Bxd6 Qxd6 14.Ne4 Qb4+!? /If I recall correctly the main line goes 14...Qe7 which again defines a defensive strategy/
14.Qb4!? is aggressive and yet flexible enough not to put us into defending state.
Edited: Spelling
Originally posted by RagnorakOh... so you are going to change the rules now? What is this a pre-vote vote?
A question for u guys.
So far, I've put all proposed moves to the vote. It seems to me that we've shown that 12 ...Qb6 isn't the way to go. Should I still add it to the vote, or when we show proposal to be weak, it shouldn't be included in the vote?
D
If I make a case against following SirLoseALot's losing line for 2 1/2 more moves, and find a couple of people who agree with me can we eliminate Bd6 from the vote also?
Guess I'll just take my ball and go home ðŸ˜